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Junior Doctors Unemployment in August

1000 replies

PurpleFairyLights · 17/05/2025 22:13

Name changed but long term poster. Have a child that is in this situation with 100k of student debt.

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2025-05-07/bma-we-could-potentially-see-thousands-of-unemployed-doctors

Unbelievable this was allowed. Most countries protect their medical graduates.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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R3s3t · 18/05/2025 22:20

I do think there is an element of doctors having experienced a gilded education finding the realities of entering the workplace hard and have the expectation they should be immune to modern day pressures when in reality I’m not sure why they should. I do think as I said uk trained doctors should have first dibs at jobs considering the investment for the country however the realty is finding jobs as a graduate is hard for all and doctors shouldn’t expect to be any different after the non uk trained situation is looked at.

ProfessorLayton1 · 18/05/2025 22:21

It’s always been the case that as a doctor, you do not get your desired job in your desired area and doctors have always compromised if they want to progress in career or want to settle down in their family life with stable jobs.
But what I am seeing now is that our bright and deserving doctors do not get any jobs - that’s wrong.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 22:24

There is a lot of good information in this thread. I am going to start putting something together to send to my MP and from there journalists and hopefully a petition.

Would be grateful for any links or information that people think should go in letter.

Happy to share letter to MP.

OP posts:
crowonabranch · 18/05/2025 22:28

So many goady posters out tonight. The OP was about how doctors in this country cannot get jobs due to competition from international medics. This is a fact. I believe although I may be wrong, we are the only European country that does not give priority to home grown doctors. I can imagine other professions would be equally angry about this. As for all the 'doctors aren't special' posts, if someone is going to anaesthetise me and render me unconscious and totally vulnerable or cut into my body, I d really rather prefer that the person doing it was special to be honest.

ProfessorLayton1 · 18/05/2025 22:30

R3s3t · 18/05/2025 22:14

Well we know private schools
and grammars are over represented at Oxbridge so🤷‍♀️An Oxbridge education is a privilege in itself and actually why mention it? Graduates from other unis may well be better and have better experience.

If this person had gone to Birmingham, Cardiff, Nottingham - I would have mentioned it.
There is no need to just assume things.

CurrentHun · 18/05/2025 22:30

Some crap arguments on here.
Well ok, yes, any person could probably cause some kind of accident, but what profession do we then bluelight that critically injured person to, who can hopefully stop them dying …??

R3s3t · 18/05/2025 22:30

ProfessorLayton1 · 18/05/2025 22:21

It’s always been the case that as a doctor, you do not get your desired job in your desired area and doctors have always compromised if they want to progress in career or want to settle down in their family life with stable jobs.
But what I am seeing now is that our bright and deserving doctors do not get any jobs - that’s wrong.

But that’s the same for graduates in all sectors.

As a tax payer I’d like the non UK trained thing sorted with jobs going to UK trained doctors and nurses first but other than that no sorry don’t agree with other measures and I’ll think you’ll be hard pressed to find many that do.

OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 22:32

IwasDueANameChange · 18/05/2025 21:46

Isn't some of the issue that surgery is popular so attracts a bigger share of young doctors wanting to do it.

I suspect less popular specialisms are less oversubscribed

All the specialities, even the most undersubscribed years ago are oversubscribed this year. Doctors who are complaining of being unemployed are not being choosy. It appears that IMGs outside the UK and who have never worked in the NHS are securing the jobs ahead of UK grads and UK IMGs who are already working in the UK within the NHS. Hence, many doctors, including IMGs already here are facing unemployment. Those overseas can get evidence (CREST forms) of experience signed off overseas which makes the process easier for them to navigate and take up NHS posts. Weaknesses in the recruitment system is the problem along with lack of funding for training beyond medical school. The removal of the RLMT which means UKMGs and IMGs are on an equal footing, together with exploitation of the loopholes caused by this by businesses profiteering from recruitment of new IMGs for the NHS has made the situation dire.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 22:36

I am going to ask for reversal of 2019 decision and for workforce purposes allow unfilled posts to go to IMGs but allow them to get a visa when outside of country.

I am concerned about the reported influence on BMA decisions and PLAB exams/GMC.

Would appreciate any information or links

OP posts:
puffinchuffin · 18/05/2025 22:37

Some people massively under estimate the role of junior dr's. F1's and 2 in the area i work (a very large inner city trauma centre A&E) work 8 or 10 hour shifts, they do 7 days on 2 off 4 on 2 off. They also have exams etc happening at the same time. They are the first medic patients are seeing, we could have one reg or consultant, not both, one of the other, who every junior who sees a patient has to go to for confirmation before they can discharge or refer on a patient. Just considering for a minute ambulatory - so walk in or patients brought by ambulance deemed well enough to wait, could have 70+ patienst at a given time. theres 5 F1'&2's seeing assessing taking history documenting ordering diagnostics chasing diagnostics reviewing diagnostics referring these patients. They dont get their breaks, they NEVER leave on time as they have so much documentation to do. I as a nurse badger them to help me do the difficult cannulation, to prescribe pain relief, to prescribe regular medications for patients waiting 15+ hours, to see a patient deterioating sooner, to reassess a patient whos i think just doesnt look right, to see a sepsis trigger within the allocated time order all teh tests and prescribe the appropriate treatments, check every single ECG and blood gas i do immediately, to follow up someone the labs have called about, to do a MCA on a patient i dont think has capacity to leave, all on top of the 15 patients they are already in the process of seeimng and treating. They work so hard, they have to know so much, they have to remain calm under immense pressures, they have no free time, no social life. They move departments to a new speciality every few months, not even a speciality of their chosing, not even in a town, sometimes county or even country of their chosing. And they get paid next to fuck all for the privilege, knowing that they have decades of studying to get close to the top, and that top is never guaranteed. Our young Dr's are broken by the system before they even start, now, after being broken by it, they are being told theres no jobs for them after, and have to do locuming until something turns up, with 100's sometimes 1000's of applicants for positions. Its quite frankly, disgusting.

We need Dr's. We need Dr's that arent broken by a system that should be helping them suceed. Instead we have people slating them for being lazy, money driven, not comptetive enough, being entitled and expecting it to be handed to them. No Dr enters the profession thinking they are guarenteed their dream job immediately. But they should be guaranteed A job, and paid and supported appropriately.

PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 22:39

OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 22:32

All the specialities, even the most undersubscribed years ago are oversubscribed this year. Doctors who are complaining of being unemployed are not being choosy. It appears that IMGs outside the UK and who have never worked in the NHS are securing the jobs ahead of UK grads and UK IMGs who are already working in the UK within the NHS. Hence, many doctors, including IMGs already here are facing unemployment. Those overseas can get evidence (CREST forms) of experience signed off overseas which makes the process easier for them to navigate and take up NHS posts. Weaknesses in the recruitment system is the problem along with lack of funding for training beyond medical school. The removal of the RLMT which means UKMGs and IMGs are on an equal footing, together with exploitation of the loopholes caused by this by businesses profiteering from recruitment of new IMGs for the NHS has made the situation dire.

Thanks. Any links to profiteering from loophole?

OP posts:
PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 22:55

OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 22:45

For example, there are lots of IMGs who have already successfully navigated the process explaining the pathway to new IMGs.

https://thesavvyimg.co.uk/crest-2024-an-imgs-key-to-uk-residency/

Thank you.

Does anyone have any links for PACES courses etc

OP posts:
PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 22:57

If anyone is happy to read my draft and suggest any amendments ease DM me.

Also real life cases please DM

OP posts:
OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 23:08

https://www.ismedutech.co.uk/fast-track-fellowship-programme/

The programme above fast tracks new IMGs into the NHS through the sponsorship route potentially reducing capacity for UK doctors and IMGs already in the UK.

OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 23:23

https://www.ismedutech.com/study-pg-in-uk/

Check out the course brochures for pathways for new IMGs into the NHS. One of the courses charges each new IMG £32000. Again it's possibly the course provider/academy making the money. Not sure how much the NHS gets since it's made possible through the sponsorship licence. This is potentially adding to the difficulty in UK doctors and IMGs already in the UK securing jobs within the NHS.

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PurpleFairyLights · 18/05/2025 23:39

Thanks very much

OP posts:
Wonderberry · 18/05/2025 23:39

Agreed OP.

The public should be concerned, because poor medical workforce planning is bad for patient care.

We have unemployed doctors and huge waiting lists.

There is also the ethical element of recruiting medics from under resourced settings. We should be recruiting UK graduates first, who understand the nuances of healthcare within the NHS.

This isn't a case of healthy competition, it's unreasonable competition (1:200 for some specialities!) with a lot of very bright and capable graduates left without jobs, who will often move abroad.

Workplace conditions need looking at top for resident doctors,but that's a whole other thread.

OneMorePiece · 18/05/2025 23:51

https://medicalbuyer.co.in/bapio-to-position-india-as-global-hub-for-medical-talent/

The above article from March 2024 ( while the Tories were in power )from the Indian Press gives an insight to the intended scale of overseas recruitment for the NHS. Licence to sponsor granted by the GMC perhaps without an impact assessment on UK based Medical Graduates and UK IMGs already in the country. Are these sponsorship licences not being reviewed given the potentially huge unemployment figures of doctors already in the UK? What about the PLAB that is still running? Shouldn't there be a pause of the PLAB exams for IMGs so that they don't waste thousands of pounds on it? GMC should pause the PLAB exams and the academies should be calling for this instead of signing up more new IMGs for their courses.

Pottedpalm · 19/05/2025 00:07

@puffinchuffin puts it very well.

OneMorePiece · 19/05/2025 01:15

https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/mrcp-three-year-remote-programme/

See above details of all the various courses for new IMGs provided by the academy. If you check that link for the UK doctors involved, you will notice that the old BMA Council Chair (from 2017 -2022) is on their academy's advisory board. Maybe he needs to advise them to pause selling these courses to overseas recruits until UKMGs and IMGs already in the UK secure jobs within the NHS! Surely, given their involvement in overseas recruitment, all these senior doctors must have an idea of how bad the training issue is going to be for UK medics so why is it happening? Is any of the money made from these training courses paid to the NHS? Why do new medical schools keep opening when it's more speciality training posts, etc that need funding?

MRCP Three-Year Remote Programme - BTA

What is the MRCP Three-Year Remote Programme? The BAPIO Training Academy offers a flexible 3-year remote MRCP programme, designed to help international medical graduates prepare for their MRCP exams from the comfort of their home country. Eligibility T...

https://bapiotrainingacademy.com/mrcp-three-year-remote-programme

W0tnow · 19/05/2025 07:12

To the “why are doctors so special” crowd…I fail to see the argument for any overseas applicant, in any profession, to be prioritised over a qualified local applicant already willing and able to take up the position. What is the upside? Surely visas should be extended to those occupations where there is a skills shortage?

R3s3t · 19/05/2025 07:17

W0tnow · 19/05/2025 07:12

To the “why are doctors so special” crowd…I fail to see the argument for any overseas applicant, in any profession, to be prioritised over a qualified local applicant already willing and able to take up the position. What is the upside? Surely visas should be extended to those occupations where there is a skills shortage?

Edited

Don’t disagree with that

mumsneedwine · 19/05/2025 07:58

@puffinchuffin I think I love you 😊. Eloquently describing the utter crap F1/2 doctors deal with every day. ‘Junior’ doctor ? No, they are the doctor you will see first, who will likely run the tests and diagnose you. V likely the only doctor you’ll see if they are F2.

mumsneedwine · 19/05/2025 08:04

@R3s3t I think what is different for doctors is that they have no choice of employer. For other graduates they can move companies if want to progress or just stay in one place. Doctors are told where to go, often having to move every 6 months. No choice if want to be a doctor. No option to find a different company or culture.

And the tax payer helps fund their education (apparently - not sure it’s true as they repay £250,000 now), so getting that investment back by employing them is important.

Unemployed doctors don’t repay loans or that investment.

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