Full specialist or ASD unit attached to mainstream?

[Ricecakesaremyjam]

5yr old DS, diagnosed ASD and ADHD. Has an EHCP and 1:1 in mainstream primary reception class, been a complete shitshow and he has been made to attend for just 2hrs a day the entire time. At annual review school will agree they can’t meet need and request a change of placement.
He is clever, kind, loves to make people laugh - but also shows huge impulsivity, total
lack of danger awareness and has outbursts at school when things aren’t as he expects them to be or during any moments of transition.
This is where I’m stuck - full specialist or ASD unit attached to mainstream?
There’s pro’s and cons of both.
If he doesn’t cope in a tiny village primary I can’t see it being easier for him in a larger mainstream school with a unit attached. BUT I keep getting warned that he could pick up behavioural issues if he attends a specialist school.
I just don’t know what to do - no specialist provisions allow you to visit without having already named them on the EHCP so I feel like I’m being asked to make a huge decision totally blind.
any advice would be so appreciated. Thankyou x

@Ricecakesaremyjam So his ECHP has not been amended and you have a review coming up? Is that right? You don’t have offers of two settings yet but might?

For what it’s worth, your primary is not trying that hard! 1:1 and he’s not even in school? They are taking the money and using it where? Not on him.

If you get offered a special school, I would take it if it’s good or outstanding. I am slightly surprised you are worried about the behaviour of other dc when your school won’t have your DS in school full time. You would expect a special school to meet his needs.

DC in units within mainstream won’t get such high level staff/teacher ratio. The units tend to work closely with classroom teachers and integration is encouraged. It’s still mainstream but should be more tailored to his needs. The classroom teachers won’t be specialist though so it’s a half way house really. I’d take the special school first if you are offered it.

Your village primary is looking to offload and will be doing everything they can to say they cannot meet his needs. They would have been forced to have him in the first place I expect and village schools are often seen as havens for Sen and cannot cope. Therefore go to a school where they can cope! A special school and use future reviews to move to mainstream if it’s appropriate.

"he could pick up behavioural issues if he attends a specialist school."

Well it seems he has not "picked up" good behaviour from main stream peers so he might not pick up anything negative in special school ...
A ss might be more structured and geared to supporting him to be in school for whole days

I would ask which placement has a peer group for him. That would be my deciding factor. (I work in SEND.) He might be far too able for the specialist setting, depending on the cohort.

My son who is 18 soon has diagnosis ADHD and ASD. Academically able, his story is as follows. He was excluded from mainstream for behavioural issues at 5 and then got EHCP and went to an inclusion unit in mainstream primary. First two years rarely in mainstream, by end of year 6’managing most of the day. 1 2 1 in mainstream academically selective school with gradual reduction in support, Sixth form no support needed but retains EHCP which allowed for additional support with counselling /exam support. On target for 3 A stars at A level with a large diverse friendship group.
you have to make decisions on what is right today as support is easier to withdraw than increase in the future. You have to be on it all the time working with and supporting school but trust yourself

I would agree the peer group is super important to think about. For an able child it leans me more to inclusion unit as the social aspects are so important

This is all about the individual settings, not generically whether RP or specialist school is better. Ask for a phone chat with both their SENCos. Make it clear in your email that you have an EHCP and DC is in a placement that cannot meet need - the SENCo needs to see your son as a serious "contender" for a place. I have ruled out several schools with those conversations without seeing the school. If both still sound like a potentially good fit, ask LA to consult with both.

Stage 1 of the consult is a paper exercise but there is usually a stage 2 where they invite you and your child for a visit. Do that, and then withdraw your request for any less preferred schools. State your reasons why in terms of why they can't meet your child's needs.

I understand you're saying no visits until the school is named on the EHCP but I'm finding it difficult to believe that all these settings are accepting children without meeting either them or their parents. That is very different to our experience. I wonder if in practice they will not only let you visit, but require you to visit, once you're over the hurdles of (1) you have asked LA to consult with them, (2) they have seen his EHCP and (3) they think from that that they could potentially meet need. The visit happens before the LA signs it off and names the school on the EHCP. So you don't need to make the final decision blind, you just have to decide who to request consults from.

Also be aware that all school places will have been allocated for September.
There is definitely a possibility of movement within this but it can be a lot more tricky as it's so late in the academic year.
A review this term should be looking at consultations asap to see which provision feels can meet need.

Depending on where you are provision varies immensely.
Local parent support groups can be invaluable in guiding you through the way your authority meets its obligations.

@Scissor our LA has a habit of allocating places in the last couple of days of the summer term. Absolutely horrible for DCs' transition, but now would definitely not be too late for this year in our area. Totally agree that kicking off consults asap is key.

Mine allocates Feb to allow for appeals before national offer day.
Makes Valentine's extra special!!

There are no general principles for whether base or school is better. I've run both.

You need to see what your actual provision is like as they vary enormously. I once worked in a Base and my kids were complex and had very little contact with the mainstream school. The other school in our federation had a Base full of very bright, academic kids who spent most of the day in class. Totally, totally different despite the schools having the same Head.

You really should be able to visit a range of provisions before you are consulted on naming a school/DSP. Speak to your school’s SENCO. Our school SENCO often helps with making appointments and will accompany parents to the visits so that she can support them.

If it were me, I would probably be looking for a DSP attached to a mainstream school. If needs change then you always have the option of considering a different provision at a future annual review. Good luck and I really hope that you find the right place to support your child’s needs.

You really do need to look at the local units and specialist schools, just email and they all still do show rounds. In my town we have 4 specialist primaries but each caters to totally different children- 1 is SEMH, 1 is PMLD, 2 are for children who are more academically able but still use a very adapted curriculum. The units to are varied- some or totally separate, some are a base for children to access in the day or for interventions. It's unusual here for children as young as reception to have the school say they can't meet need. Ultimately it's up to the LA but they will choose the cheapest option, so you will have to do the legwork yourself and potentially fight for your choice. I'm looking at specialist settings and units for my yr5 child atm, it's a minefield.

It’s really hard to say as each child and setting is unique. What are his communication / language skills like? What sort of support has been recommended such as by the speech and language therapist / educational psychologist ? It would definitely be useful to look around some settings

I don't understand how you want the vote to work. Neither option is unreasonable.

My son went to both types of school. The only school that really worked was a specialist school.

Thanks everyone for your replies.
His language skills are good in that he’s verbal, and can be understood. He is able to answer closed questions with ease “what shape is that?” but struggles with more open ended questions that require imagination. His imagination is developing, he still scripts a lot (will enjoy an episode of a cartoon and then watch it on repeat for days to learn it off by heart and then script it)
He understands when someone is displaying differing emotions but has close to zero understanding of when someone doesn’t want to talk to him/will keep talking at them, doesn’t understand personal space or most social boundaries.
Is beginning to lash out at staff at school. They are speaking about suspending him (despite not following ANY of his EHCP which may or may not have helped avoid him becoming so frustrated and disregulated).
Is interested in other children and enjoys playing games like tag, but also often needs his own space and doesn’t like being interrupted when he is “in the zone” building with lego etc. this can prompt an outburst.
He is massively socially vulnerable and if anything and I mean anything was presented to him as being funny or a joke, he would do it and as such is hugely vulnerable to exploitation which is a huge concern of mine if he were to be in mainstream as he gets older.
of the units attached to mainstream I have visited, one I didn’t like the vibe of and was told by the SENCO they didn’t accept children who require 1:1 supervision. Another one was “ok” but they are totally full. And another one I quite liked but they are also totally full and out of county (although we live on the border so actually closer than some schools that are within our county).

Sorry also to add the only specialist schools I’ve been able to visit were for children with much higher needs than his and also the tours were after school hours so I had no opportunity to get an idea of what his peer group would be.

My DS attended a DSP in years 4-6. There were 6 children, all year 3+. They said they did technically take younger children, but that the needs usually didn’t escalate until the children were a bit older so young ones were unusual. Supervision was 2:1.

DS has gone on to mainstream secondary, with 1:1 TA support. In a mainstream classroom, the focused support is essential, but in the DSP setting he was absolutely fine with 2:1 - there were fewer issues because fewer students.

We really liked the DSP set-up because DS was able to interact with mainstream students with a high level of interventions in the background. On days where his stress levels were high, he could spend the entire day in the DSP. Other days he spent almost entirely in the mainstream classroom.

We went back to mainstream thanks to the DSP. He probably would not have been able to handle mainstream secondary if we had stuck with mainstream primary. If we had gone specialist, he probably would have stuck with specialist because they didn’t seem to gear back to reintegration and that didn’t work for DS - he is academic and the specialist provision around here is not aimed at kids who want to go to university and DS wants to do space engineering.

It is worth finding out if the DSPs around you have kids who are roughly the same age - it won’t be great if your young DC is in with a bunch of year 5/6s. We have four primary DSPs in our borough and we were not given a choice, but it did work out well.

Also important to consider where you want it to go… is reintegration to mainstream your goal? Is specialist secondary the way to go? Around here there are DSPs in secondary schools as well, would that be an option when you get there?

From your posts id go full specialist placement and not worry too much about academic side at the stage. He needs settled in an environment that can meets his needs then once he is settled and regulated then look at academic side

Being out of area doesn’t matter. The school can still be named (for most units, the mainstream school is named in I and the unit provision included in F).

Being ‘full’ also isn’t enough to refuse your preference. For non-wholly independent schools, the LA would have to prove the school is so full admitting DS is incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others or efficient use of resources. Obviously there is a point LAs can do that, but the bar is far higher than LAs and many schools like to admit.

1:1 can be provided. It would need to be in F, though.

If the provision in the EHCP isn’t being provided, have you contacted the LA? They are the ones ultimately responsible. If you have, but it still isn’t being provided, have you sent a pre-action letter? However, provision can only be enforced if it is detailed, specified and quantified in F. If the wording is vague and woolly (e.g. access to, would benefit from, opportunities for, or equivalent) then it can’t be enforced and you should use the review to try to tighten up the wording/appeal when you have the right of appeal.

Can you visit and view the places before you apply? Do you actually have a choice, are these settings not usually oversubscribed?

The problem is they all vary so much in approach and so on you can't realistically say a blanket thing like "children pick up bad behaviour in special schools".

I'd push for a viewing of the schools. You can go and view the special schools in my area.
They could pick up bad behaviours from mainstream just as much as they could in special school.
I have an autistic DC due to start mainstream in September. I want him to go to mainstream as I think he has good academic capabilities and special school would hold him back academically. Many children in special school have severe learning difficulties and the curriculum is really stripped back. I'm prepared for mainstream not working out but wanted to give it a go.
If you think your DC can do well academically with the right support then I'd suggest the ASD unit. If you think your DC will always struggle academically even with support go for the special school.

@Ricecakesaremyjam I don’t think you will get a choice of special schools. Which one will actually meet his needs? If the dc are a lot worse than him, then my guess is you wouldn’t get a place anyway. He’s not bad enough.

Regarding a unit, I’m not sure 1:1 would continue. These units are expensively staffed and they won’t necessarily employ 1:1 on top of this provision. I do think you need much clearer guidance on what would meet his needs. When are you seeing EP? Him moving isn’t just about his school pushing him out. His ECHP should be reviewed. You are being poorly served by your school so get the review asap but the LA should put forward suitable options with spaces.

I’ve asked for an Ed Psych to reassess and was told “they will try and request it….”
As I’ve had to give up work to facilitate this mental 2hr timetable, I’m not in a position to pay for a private EP report either.

@Ricecakesaremyjam When is his review going to take place? If he’s only doing 2 hours, get the SENDCO to get this rolling. Of course the LA will have to sit up if he’s permanently excluded. It’s a tactic as old as the hills.

The annual review was due a month ago and school keep dicking about. They also didn’t notify the LA of the date it’s arranged for. The SENCO is also the headteacher and it’s her that’s insistent on this timetable and hasn’t put any alternative provision in place 😮