to say I’m shocked that 20/30 somethings today regressed from Feminism?

[Reallynosuchthing]

At my sports club last night where I play with a range of women, half of us ages 40-60 (some married some divorced) and the other half are late 20s early 30s and all either planning weddings, just married or in relationships. So the wedding talk turns to talking about proposals and 2 of the younger ones are desperate to get engaged and their partners seem oblivious - they were talking about having their nail’s “done” every two weeks “in case he proposed” or looking forward to every trip to a fancy restaurant or holiday in a pretty location imagining that will be the proposal spot.

I piped up - if you want to marry him what is stopping you from proposing? It is the 21st century - and you are allowed to take control of your destiny!

The reactions were - all in shock - looked at me like I suggested we all jump off a cliff right now, then laughing and saying “no way! I want my romantic proposal!”

I had to laugh! But I feel really frustrated with them!

YABU - of course young women should expect a fairytale proposal?

YANBU - how can we expect equality and yet still want to let men control our choice to marry or not.

I agree. DH is a faffy sort of person about planning ahead and I knew he wouldn't think to propose. So I asked him to marry me, not a pre-planned proposal or anything, I just asked one day. I think it's silly when women hang around endlessly waiting as if it's his choice alone and she's not permitted to express what she wants!

Well in heterosexual relationships, men are always going to control women's choice to marry. You can't force them to want to! Equally, women control men's choice to marry.

I don't think that wanting a romantic proposal necessarily indicates a lack of equality in the relationship either. Lots of people like traditions and rituals which mark important life events. It doesn't actually mean you have to buy into a life of traditional gender roles. I agree that their efforts to engineer a proposal situation are ludicrous though!

Yanbu, OP. I hate the lack of agency in sitting around just waiting and hoping for a proposal. If you want to get married, take the bloody initiative!

I wonder how many women waste years of their lives in relationships that aren't going anywhere, simply because they don't want to be the ones to ask.

I think they are just young and raised on Disney princess movies, looking for their fairytale. It doesn’t necessarily indicate that their relationships will end up unequal.

I don’t think it’s the lack of feminism, it’s the Instagram generation wanting to document and prearrange every moment. No dinner is complete without a photo of every dish, and what should be an intimate moment with your partner is ruined unless your nails are perfect.

I don't know which option to pick. My engagement was somewhere in the middle - a mutual discussion rather than a big showy proposal - I hate fuss.

When I was in my teens and 20s I didn't have a good model of feminism - feminists were those older women who had let themselves go, who you were never going to turn into. This was at the same time as the ladette culture.

I'm envious of women who had a good model of feminism when they were young.

I don't know OP. I'm a feminist and I'm in my 50s but I waited for DH to propose (with some hints!). I don't think that makes me a bad feminist. I just wanted him to be the one to propose.

Women in their 20s and 30s aren't a homogenous group. There are some women who love this sort of thing. There are others who don't. That applies to every age group. There has never been a generation of women who are universally feminist.

Pretty broad generalisation based on a small group. I wasn't fussed in the slightest about a grand proposal. Some people are.

Some people want a big fancy wedding, some people don't. I don't think it's do do with feminism. Different people want different things...is that so hard to believe?

Wanting a nice, "Insta" proposal isn't anti feminist

It's just wanting something different to you

I feel like wanting a romantic proposal just means that you want to feel desired. Isn't that what most people in relationships (or wanting a relationship) wants?

If I had a wish, I would be very tempted to wish that women especially young women would pick up new role models and ways of thinking about their future life. In my late teens/early 20’s I thought we had cracked all this, equality was a given. And my peers would all want fulfilling careers.

snd look what’s happened to so many of us now. And I agree with OP so many girls focused on romance and children. Sigh.

But wanting romance and children doesn't make you antifeminist?

Feminism is about having the right to choose. Either career, romance/children, both...right?

Absolutely agree @HonestAquaMember but genuine choice requires not closing down options which will have consequences later in life. Getting a decent job can provide the flexibility to have children alongside a career, and ensuring some degree of financial security for yourself and your DC regardless of what else might happen to you.

A bit of a stretch to say this demonstrates that feminism has regressed.

But again, surely that's up to each individual woman? By telling a woman she must make a career before getting married/having children, you're taking away part of the choice.

I think a lot of ‘feminism’ went too far and told women they’re not allowed to want these things. It’s not okay to want a man to take the lead etc - and some younger women are now pushing back on that. Personally I’ll never have that mentality 😂 But it does piss me off when people say women shouldn’t want it! Surely feminism is about respecting the fact we can all want and pursue whatever we like. If that’s a 1950s housewife kinda life, so be it.

So feminists can't have their nails done? Go on holiday? Expect a bit of romance?

Of course they can propose but it's not the fairytale

Whats stopping them proposing? The fact that if the man hasn’t asked that’s because he doesn’t want to and so he won’t say yes. There’s very little social pressure on men to marry anymore.

And feminism never said that women have to do all the things prior generations demanded. So why get frustrated?

I had a romantic proposal- pre-social media.

But we'd had a couple of conversations over the years about was that the direction we wanted to go in and when. In the month or so before the proposal we'd had a conversation about it being the "right" time and gone browsing at rings. The romantic bit was just the formal asking with DH picking a pleasant moment to officially ask.

Of course they can propose but it's not the fairytale

why? because it doesn’t involve a man validating you and taking charge of your life-course while you passively swoon in wide-eyed innocent and demure surprise?

No because women should have choices. I'd that's what they want , absolutely fine. Being a feminist means you have equal opportunities it doesn't mean that you can't have a man sweep you off your feet if that's what you want

Of course... he's only asking and you can say NO
But if you're waiting for the proposal then marrying is something you do WANT

If they want the romantic proposal then they should wait for it. However, they should be having intelligent and direct conversations about marriage, children, housing, finances, work, lifestyle and the general future with their partner. They should plainly state the things that they want and that if the partner wants these things too then they should propose in a certain time frame. I was clear that I was ready for marriage but I needed him to propose so that I know that he had really thought about it and come to the same conclusion. It wasn't just a statement either, it was through various conversations. A time frame is important as you see a lot of stories of men saying 'at some point' or 'one day' and then years go past and nothing happens, which can make it harder to find someone new and possibly start a family if that's what you want.

I think it’s unfair to say that women who want certain things have regressed from feminism. You’re basically saying feminism has to be the way you want it to be.