To wonder why on every post someone asks if the poster or people the OP is posting about are neurodivergent

[Lovingthehamsterwheel]

On literally every post, whatever the topic, people ask if the poster or people being posted about are neurodivergent.

I think this is getting a bit out of hand, as a neurodivergent person myself, with adhd and ASD kids, it gets a bit annoying and insulting seeing any quirk or difference being seen as a disability and diminishes the experiences of those who are living with ND.

Am I being unreasinable to think that?

I saw something similar, saying we were on track for 50% of the population to have a ND diagnosis by 2030. If over 50% of the population have a diagnosis, doesn't that make ND the norm and the ones that don't have a diagnosis the divergent ones?

Nonsense.

I have a nephew who is (diagnosed) ND and his parents despair at this trend. He's now in early secondary school and they say there is so much online (in particular) and from peers basically encouraging him to use his neurodiversity as a free pass to behave like an arse because "it's just how his brain works" and he shouldn't care about his impact on others.

Their mantra is basically: it's an explanation but never an excuse. His brain works differently, and that's useful knowledge to help him understand himself and help him and others understand what support and techniques could help him reach his full potential. But it isn't a free pass to behave badly or avoid putting in the work in or treating others with respect and kindness. If he wants to be understood, he also needs to make an effort to understand others.

Obviously this is within his own capabilities and abilities and he's going to need plenty of support to get there. Some people will have a much harder row to hoe than others but a general "I can't help being dickish to others because of my neurodiversity" isn't helping anyone.

The thing for me is this. What if the OP or person being spoken about is ND but doesn't know it themselves. Hence, how can it be answered with even a small level of certainty.

If I piss somebody off and they bring it to AIBU.
Then posters ask, "is she ND". I think that I might be ASD but seeing as I'm 50+ and nobody gives a shit, I will never know. I've had all the traits which are now commonly recognised long before the internet even existed. I just got labelled "hysterical", a weirdo, finicky cow and a mental bitch, amongst a whole slew of similarly flattering words and phrases. Possibly because I'm female and when I was young "girls don't get that" applied.
If I don't know, how would anyone else know. Even my therapist didn't know when I asked her if it was possible. I think maybe that takes a specialist and they're in short supply. Plus, the system only really seems interested in children.

Surely, any answer is only going to be a guess in the majority of cases.

I do see how it might piss someone off who is diagnosed ND, to have so much bad behaviour suspected as being associated with their condition by assumption.

This.

I think it’s a reflection of how dysfunctional and unnatural the systems and structures we have to live within are.

How rigid and one-size-fits-all everything is. Not just education but also the workplace and society as it is. We have become too ‘civilized’ , advanced and developed. We have become so far removed from our natural state as hunter gatherers (not saying we should go back to actual caves and hunting) that people who can’t ‘fit’ these moulds are labeled (or label themselves) as divergent in a vain attempt to explain why they feel different.

This does not mean every ND person isn’t. Just saying it’s a reason for the high number of cases.

It's usually a way of excusing some shitty behaviour. It does seem to be popping up more frequently recently I agree

I agree with this.

Especially after reading that ADHD is or can be basically a result of being treated in a bad way and not having a safe bond with parents (theres a book called Scattered mind by Gabor Mate, also books by G. Neufeld or B. van der Kolk). Early life experiences literally shape our mind and behaviour patterns later in life. Hopefully this is the start of understanding of how to actually treat our children and how to look at problematic behaviour.

Gabor Maté and van der Kolk are hacks

I think we need to separate out the two issues: that some people are ND and that goes undiagnosed, and that they can also be awful people.

I have a couple of late-diagnosed ND people in my life and the lengths they go to to try to use it as an excuse for some frankly despicable behaviour - mostly horrific bullying - that they have initiated and kept at (to the extent that the people they targeted had breakdowns). This isn't 'oh actually I'm AuDHD', this is 'I'm a shitty, vindictive person with AuDHD'. They are doing a disservice to ND people everywhere.

I think the problem with calling out ND people who ‘are arseholes’ is that really one of the hallmarks or say autism is social and communication differences… so is it not understandable that ND people may come across as rude or hostile, whilst not necessarily meaning to? It’s like the Einstein quote judge a fish for not being able to climb a tree…

But often on threads on here, we aren't talking about differences in communication styles. We have ND people in our families, they are lovely people who struggle with communication at times, with social norms - that's entirely different from a nasty person who behaves selfishly and with cruelty. A lot of the people posters are asking for advice on might be ND and that is feeding into their difficulties with the world, but you can usually see the difference between someone like that and someone who clearly views the poster as a punchbag and nanny/cleaner/dogsbody. Some people are cruel and abusive and it's trite IMO to put that down to neurodiversity when it's so obviously not part of the profile.

Because ND is very common. The majority of my household have it. 🤣🤣 No actually joking aside it is extremely common dyslexia, dyspraxia, SPD, ASD, ADHD, some PDs possibly come under the umbrella dyscalculia may be rare enough individually (where I am ASD is now being diagnosed at a rate of 1 in 25, the last education conference on ASD I was at this was the figure quoted but I don’t have the reference for it) but in combination all of those diagnosis ands add up to be incredibly common.

Yes.

There are a lot of 'experts' out there making huge amounts of money from the ND and trauma industries.

That are literally just giving their opinions, opinions that aren't or can;t be backed up by actual empirical evidence but become cannon.

Which filters down to all the Youtube/Tiktokers making a lot of money as self-proclaimed 'experts' or ND/trauma/narcissism 'influencers' who post crap like "10 signs you are a woman with ADHD/traumatised/a victim of narc abuse which focus on feelings or behaviours that apply to the majority of the population and are not in any way linked to any kind of diagnostic criteria.

Shit like 'scrolling for hours on social media is a sign of ADHD' or a 'trauma response' when all the research tells us that social media is designed to make people addicted to it and is effecting peoples concentration, moods and behaviour.

Or random made-up quotes that make being ND, mentally ill or having been a victim of something against a background of waves or a field of flowers seem aspirational "if you are reading this, you've survived your life until this point, heartbreak, losses, betrayals, trauma. And here you are, you are a warrior"

I think it’s often a toxic mixture of nurture / nature and neurotype. ND people often rely on familiar scripts and use the same coping mechanisms over and over again. That is why they’re ND and not NT…

Not saying it’s right to be abusive or a disagreeable person, but it’s often down to multiple complex factors, some of which may well be neurotype. Especially for people whose parents didn’t know their child was different who used harmful parenting techniques. They may have gotten used to a certain way of being and can’t get out of those bad habits.

Just because someone's neurodivergent doesn't mean it gives them free rein to be an arsehole towards their nearest and dearest, nor does it mean that their loved ones have to tolerate their unpleasantness.

Absolutely agree with this. I'm ND and I find it disgusting the way anyone who acts like a dick gets told that people should "be kind" to them as they might be ND. As if thats the only reason for anyone to act like an arsehole.

It's either that, or dementia. These are the two excuses constantly being wheeled out to excuse aggressive, rude, or offensive behaviour or sexual harassment.

No. Just no. Some people in life are just dickheads- there is no deeper reason.

You are so not being unreasonable.

I feel myself getting really angry when people post shitty behaviour and say oh but could they be ND. Well they very might well but we aren't a one size fits all. Often it's a personality problem. I have my difficulties for sure. I'm sure I piss off my partner with my chore difficulties. But I'm a great person. Really loyal and kind and step up for lots of people who matter to me. I'm not a cf. I can be very socially aware, probably too much as I am hypervigilant with it. I can be fun and a great friend. I can listen and take note of the little things about you and remember them about you if I gift something. I am a great friend. I love my family.

I own my own car, never missed a bill, work full time. I have to make sure that I am organised or my life falls to shit. It's hard. Damn blody hard to live with this brain and I try so hard to keep it all up with zero energy.

Never hurting anyone then you get SOME idiots on here trotting misinformation off like it's fact like we all do this and that and ND people are rude or hard work or they are selfish and I'm utterly tired of the lies perpuated on here. It really exhausts me.

The same is true of us all, though. The fact is that some people are just not as nice, in themselves, as others. They are happier with cruelty and they place their needs above those of people they pretend to love. We can go round the houses all day and say, oh it's this, it's that, it's their childhood, it's their neurodiversity. And yet others with similar lives do not have that disposition.

I do believe everyone has a natural nature, but for example when I look at my ND son and how he is learning about what to say and how to act, he’s super vulnerable to being easily led and could easily copy damaging or violent behaviours if we as parents were that way inclined…he’s like a little black box without a filter and that terrifies me. Obviously we do our best to help him understand how he should act, but I can see how easily it can go the other way. More typical people should just know better IMO because they have that in built social understanding that ND often times simply do not.

I personally worry that we are labelling normal life challenges as neurodiversity. Like I saw someone say recently, I shout at my children sometimes because I am neurodiverse and struggle to stay emotionally regulated. What parent doesn’t? That doesn’t mean to say that parenting as someone who is neurodiverse doesn’t present its challenges, but everyone who is a parent gets emotionally dysregulated and shouts at their children. Parenting is hard and none of us find it easy.

I feel the same when I hear people say they need to be on antidepressants because they are grieving the loss of a parent and were feeling sad. Obviously, grief that is causing someone not to function or to feel suicidal, yes, that needs clinical intervention. But grief is meant to be sad. We don’t need to label it depression and medicate it. And I worry that we’re becoming very quick to label anything that is a bit quirky, a bit challenging, a bit emotional as neurodivergence. Instead of just acknowledging that you can be neurodivergent and also quirky or also sometimes emotionally dysregulated or also stubborn.

That said, I have a family member who sexually abused his teenage daughter and apparently, he is neurodiverse, which made it hard for him to understand social cues and appropriate boundaries. 🙄 Even though he apparently, understands them perfectly well in all other aspects of his life with friends, family, colleagues, the postman, etc.

I don;t know if anyone is watching the Stacey Solomon/Joe Swash reality series.

It's interesting because I think it reflects a lot of what people go through and what I went through with an ex-partner with ADHD.

Joe clearly has ADHD, has a diagnosis of it and also had a traumatic loss of his Dad when he was 12.

And some things that they're working through in therapy (possibly just for the cameras) is easily explained by an ADHD diagnosis like Stacey asking him for help with something and he gets distracted and does something else which he thinks is helpful but isn;t really helpful in terms of what she asked for help with.

But then there are other things like him popping out to the shops or something in the morning and not coming home for several hours despite her texting and calling and he knows she's at home with 3 kids 5 and under.

At what stage does she or any other woman/man in that situation get to say you're taking the piss, fannying about for hours doing your own thing when i'm struggling with these kids and you're deliberately ignoring me or just telling me you'll be home soon when you clearly have no intention to be and ADHD isn't an excuse?

At what point does it become neglect or emotionally abusive? because without the ADHD diagnosis, I think the majority of the population would say it was but throw that into the mix and a lot of well-meaning people will say aw, he's got ADHD.

When actually, it's shit and potentially abusive behaviour and ADHD could be being used as an excuse by a shit, potentially abusive partner who just happens to have ADHD.

I definitely file that under 'arsehole behaviour' - because while the ADHD problem of distractibility/lost time/genuine forgetfulness is there, the feeling of 'my wife is at home with 3 young kids and I am being a selfish prick if I leave her alone when she needs me' is not one that just disappears. Unless he doesn't care.

Exactly that. It's more his personality. Or maybe it's just men I don't know.

I certainly do not do that or act that way to my partner. I think about him a lot and what might affect him. He does think about me in practical ways but sometimes falls short emotionally. Is that a man and woman thing? I aren't sure. I know if we had kids I wouldn't piss off and swan about leaving him to it.

I do like clear communication about what is going on and he's not very good at that (NT) Sometimes he expects me to just get something and I might not do as he's hinted badly. I am definitely the better communicator and he can frustate me so much. But I annoy him too. We aren't perfect. We both have our flaws and our good ways too.

Abusive people are just abusive. Their ADHD has nothing to do with it as you say they just happen to have ADHD

It does appear on those threads “things that always happen on mumsnet”, as a parody of itself. If these “labels” are overused, it’s harder for those for whom it really is a problem.

it reminds me of a Hyacinth Bucket quote: “people shouldn’t pretend to be superior. It makes it so much harder for those of us who really are.”

I think the public trend led by government and others to promote awareness of mental health and neurodiversity has backfired because awareness isn;'t the same as understanding or MH/ND literacy.

And the catch-all term 'mental health' which covers everything from schizophrenia to having a walk outside, a chat with friends or a bath bomb as it's for 'mental health'.

I dealt with this in my previous job where just to give a couple of examples, the care network and family were asking for assessments for PTSD days after someone had been in a fire, because they seemed really low and afraid of fire. At that point, they had injuries restricting movement, were on prophylactic antibiotics which were making them feel sick and they generally felt shit. But the concerns were about PTSD because 'they seem traumatised'. Well yes, they just went though a trauma, they are traumatised and are having a normal response but that doesn;t mean PTSD at this stage so let's give them a chance to process and heal and see where were are then.

And "we're worried about his mental health after being given a lengthy prison sentence. he seems really low". Yeah he will be, he's going to be in prison for years, it's going to make him feel low, it would be weird if he didn't feel low.

We need better terms. Lots of people apparently objected to psychiatric or mental illness but we need to differentiate between emotional wellbeing and illness in some way.