To not want to 'celebrate' VE

[Ramblethroughthebrambles]

I've been asked to take part in VE celebrations this week. I've politely declined. It feels OK to me to join in a solemn commemoration, with a focus on how to make sure this never happens again, but not a celebration of victory which all the UK events seem to be. I'm grateful for the sacrifices so many soldiers and others made and that we didn't become part of the Nazi empire. I completely get why people originally celebrated the end of such an awful war and its hardships. But celebrating military victory 80 years on doesn't sit right with me, especially given the conflicts in the world today. It seems to normalise military intervention and sends the message that military victory is a 'good thing' when often it's a result of failures in international diplomacy/ strategy / long term thinking. I'm not a complete pacifist and recognise there are times when military intervention is a necessary evil. But that doesn't make me want to celebrate it.

I never hear anyone else expressing this view in public. There seems to be an expectation that we'll all want to get the bunting out and have a tea party. So AIBU?

@SALaw There are many examples of those who saw it firsthand not getting into the spirit of it all. Miserable buggers, spoiling it for younger generations.. If the government and the BBC had listened to veterans properly beforehand the ‘celebrations’ would have been much more muted. They don’t listen, they don’t learn.

While the rest of Europe remembered respectfully, we were doing pretty much the equivalent of ‘Two worlds wars, and one world cup’ bollocks’.

Yes, my Grandad and his 3 brothers were all prisoners of war. Their parents received 4 telegrams saying each son was “missing, presumed dead” but all returned home. However, not one ever took part in any war commemoration ceremony throughout their lives as they hated remembering, hated the war and were extremely traumatised by it. All long dead now but the pain they felt lived on much stronger than the pride.

I will be celebrating. The end of the war in Europe ought to be marked.

I agree OP. My kids will have to do stuff at school (dress in British colours - hopefully they’ll educate them appropriately about ww2 too) I’m personally uncomfortable with anything glorifying war particularly given the state of things at the moment. I agree with a pp who said ‘commemorate but not celebrate’. I understand at the time there were millions celebrating, but we haven’t been through those same hardships and I don’t feel like it’s a good excuse now for street parties etc. and the way the media go on about it. Anything the people in power can through at us to distract us from the real issues going on and keep us quiet/happy.

Please can you lay out the diplomatic strategy you would’ve used to prevent the outbreak of the war? As you clearly have excellent military credentials and insight where thousands of highly experienced diplomats have failed?

There's a difference between celebrating the end of a war and celebrating winning it. Of course it's possible to do both, but when the celebrations are just about having won, that seems wrong. And I agree that the emphasis seems to be shifting towards that.

I agree with you OP and it’s refreshing to read some very thoughtful opinions on this thread

I also find VE Day mildly jingoistic and lacking in nuance. The veterans themselves mostly don’t want to talk about it .

I object to the Windsors and politicians using the day for stolen valour . On a side note - Charles’ father’s family supported Hitler as did most of the German aristocracy. Hitler wouldn’t have risen to power without their support . Yes I know Philip fought in the war but the wider more complex truth about the royals and the background to war is ignored .

The young men were conscripted - that’s what I think of when see the bunting .

I think the jingoistic elements have been creeping in for a while and it’s partly done to ‘cope’ with the UK’s vastly reduced standing in the world .
The poster who said Britain lost the peace is so right .
But that immediate post war generation built the NHS and raised education standards across the country. They were looking forward .
Now we only look back at past ‘ glories’and the Windsors dress up to distract us

It is and always will be a significant mark in history. Its origins won't ever change so why would how it's marked be subject to change? This thread is another example of twisting and turning something just for the sake of it AKA virtue signalling. Acknowledge or celebrate it or don't.

..proving my previous point, perfectly. 👍 twisting and turning.

How does it compare to what the British did across the Commonwealth and to the First Nation people of the USA? Have you watched the films set in NZ, the nightingale, Van Diemen's Land etc. Or the Dutch in the Congo etc? Or how we allowed the poor, indentured servants, children, the disabled etc to be transported, experimented on and worked/starved to death? The great Irish Famine? The Armenian genocide? How does it compare to the dying rooms that were in operation on China not so long ago? Or the treatment by the Japanese, the torture, Unit 731? Or what happens today across Africa and the ME? The rich are terrified of communism, the religious leaders are terrified of secularism. There's a massive agenda to why the Russians have been so demonised.

You are on to something thing there .
Fewer people around who were actually there to disrupt the cosplay today

Bingo card so far: bunting, trifle, jingoism, colonalism, the Royals, other wars going on.

The hate for anything the UK celebrates, continues. Miseries.

So you admit it’s a celebration ?
I thought so
Hence the jingoistic overtones

The crowds were sparse - whether that is lack of interest in the Windsors or the event or both who knows

Sparse? Are you Bigly? Not a sparse crowd.

It doesn't matter what it's referred to, its significance remains. Why bring the mood down anyway in having a problem with the celebration of how things could have been different? It's all negative. As for those referring to some veterans who don't want to celebrate it, that is understandable. That doesn't stop surviving relatives etc wanting to buoy up the event. This all comes down to another excuse to piss on the parade, the same as threads that come out at remembrance.

For the people who don't want to celebrate VE 80, I have a question.

What do you think we should celebrate on a national level?

Celebrations have the ability to bring community and country together. Otherwise we are just a bunch of people living on an island together.
Not everyone wants to celebrate everything but it does seem unnecessary to rain on other people's parades.

Sparse?? Don't be so ridiculous

Of course how events are marked or commemorated is inevitably subject to change over time — as veterans die off, as those events are differently understood, according to who precisely is doing the marking, as the country doing the commemorating changes etc etc.

Even look at the difference between the ways in which the end of WWI and WW2 are marked in the UK. One is very much a ‘commemoration’, the other a ‘celebration’.

VE day wasn't the end of WW2

Peace

Great.
What day would you celebrate 'Peace Day'? How would you do it?

(As far as I am concerned VE 80 includes celebrating 80 years of western Europe peace).

VE / VJ could easily have been used to remind us of the horror of war.
It isn’t .
Why else do the royals dress up in unearned medals ?
VE day is increasingly jingoistic - the reasons are complex but I alluded to them above

The German relatives of the Windsors helped Hitler gain and keep power . That bit is kept quiet . The Marburg papers were kept secret from the very people who fought and the general population

Britain would have lost to Germany were it not for the intervention of Russia and the US .
Soon afterwards Russia was the enemy.

The people are pawns in power games
VE Day and similar are now used to bolster a false memory .

I agree with you OP. I think 80 years on it has taken on a different meaning.

Remembrance Day has evolved, that's all that has happened. Few families now have direct ties with the people being remembered but there are still plenty of people who have loved ones in the military or who are ex-military who are being helped directly by money raised by the British Legion, via Poppy Day. I'm not sure when you think the name changed but it has been known as Poppy Day throughout my life and I'm 69. Remembrance Sunday is when the church services and parades are held, even now but Poppy Day is Armistice Day, which is and always has been 11th November.