To believe UC needs a bloody makeover!

[Lovethystupidneighbour]

Don’t panic - not a benefits bashing thread.

I see a lot of negativity around the benefits system in the UK (namely UC) but it needs to be said that in the right circumstances you can be very comfortable on benefits. It seems the government is incompetent and distributing these benefits efficiently. Why do some people get too much money and others get not enough to breathe on? Seems bloody ridiculous to me. UC is not fit for purpose!

AIBU to think they need to create a better system? How is this the best they can come up with?

I guess it's probably not a scenario that happens that frequently but if someone has no housing costs at all you would think it would be relatively easy to switch them to the lower work allowance or none at all. I guess there will be winners and losers with all benefits .I just think with UC there is such a contrast with some people struggling so much on it especially for example single people who suddenly lose their jobs and have a mortgage to pay and then others getting really significant amounts and doing pretty well from it. I just wish parts of it were a bit fairer.

Well I've read you data but nit the other side. I'll read it properly.

Exactly. That’s where I’m coming from

I have the higher work allowance as I have no housing costs. I don't rent but am still responsible for fixing and replacing things.
I am not well enough to take advantage of the work allowance anyway. I am in the LCWRA group and as I see it, the work allowance is kind of the UC equivalent of ESA permitted work. It think the higher amount is only equivalent to 16 hour on NMW wage anyway. If/when I am well enough to try work, it is good to know it is there and wont affect my benefits.

One of the biggest problems with UC is that it is designed to stop people progressing and keep them trapped in poverty. It's an ideology. Under tax credits people had a lot more flexibility to save for a deposit on a house (I realise this is area dependent due to prices but applied to me), do a bit of overtime or earn a bonus by proving themselves at work, go to uni despite having kids etc. The system supported people like myself to improve our situation. After escaping DV with my child I did a degree and I now own (with mortgage) a house. I couldn't do that now as a lot of support for student parents was withdrawn. I earned and was able to keep a bit of extra money by going over contract that really helped me get ahead, for example one time I put the money towards driving lessons which led to me getting a promotion due to being able to travel. That money would be mostly taken off me under the current system. "But taxpayer's money.." people will say. "Why should people pay for x, y, z...?" The reality is that that unless we leave people to starve benefit claimants will always exist. The system needs to be long term thinking. To use the metaphor, teaching me to fish and feed my family myself has been far more beneficial than giving me fish every day for the rest of my life. I won't need housing benefit in old age. I will have a decent pension. My kids stand a chance of an inheritance. They don't have the insecurity of being at the mercy of landlords. They get a better education because I can drive them to decent schools and extra curriculars. It's about so much more than the here and now. People being hammered by the system will remain on it for good and inequality will perpetuate down the generations.

It is. That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. Tax credits allowed you to do a bit of overtime every now and again due to how it was worked out and really feel the benefit of doing it. UC just takes money off you until with extra childcare, travel, parking etc you may as well not bother. Then the opportunities and promotions pass you by. However much people preach about work ethic they wouldn't go and do a shift to be no better off or possibly even out of pocket, especially if it was at a less pleasant job that they have had to get to pay the bills

But if you work more it is taken off you at a taper rate so surely you still end up better off by doing overtime?

I agree. I know couples where they both work FT/PT and end up taking home about 5-6k after the UC top up.

It doesn’t really make sense. Some people struggle, other people are better off on it 🤷‍♀️
If I was a single parent, I calculated I’d get about £3200, so I would be one of these people who would be doing well. (Not including any money from
DCs dad)

The benefits system is a lifestyle choice for millions. Of course it is. There al are almost 10 million people of working age on benefits. If it’s so bad, how are so many people claiming welfare and choosing not to work.

Most people know so someone who is abusing it. But of course on MN, that could never be. The protesting that goes on here from people proclaiming that there is no way that people are abusing it is wilfully blind. Either that, or people on MN are at it themselves.

The welfare system has turned this country into a basket case where an ever shrinking minority of people are paying for a large number to live for free. The money has run out and now the government is looking all lost and forlorn about how to keep this madness going.

You can be paid less. Transitional protection applies to your elements before deductions. They are very sneaky about how clearly that is explained. The high rate of deduction on UC leaves a lot of people worse off. Plus the loss of help with medical costs.

Yes but the taper rate is so steep that by the time you've paid out for the costs of working - extra childcare, parking or other travel costs etc you could emerge with so little extra that you question if it's worth it. How many people moaning that they can't survive on £100k would graft their nuts off for a shift to end up with just a few quid and reduced time with their children?

They get to keep 45p of Uc for each extra pound they earn? how is that too steep ? And why do people need bloody incentivizing so much to help themselves? many already get a generous work allowance too and barely have any deductions on their claims as it is. And if they pay extra childcare they get extra childcare help on the claim.

Made up example figures. I am on £12 per hour. My boss asks me to work 3 hours on Saturday morning as there is no cover. I'm a lone parent with no family back up so I will need a childminder for my two kids. Let's say my usual childminder is free and willing to have the kids on a weekend. Even if UC pay the 85% which they might not this could cost me say £8. Another £5 for car parking or public transport there and back. My take home for this shift allowing for tax, maybe pension and UC deduction could be as little as £12. So after costs I have -£1. Even if my costs can be reduced or I get a slight increase in pay I am still working for absolute peanuts. It is not incentivising at all. It's not even helping myself as I'd be losing money. Under WTC I'd have some extra money even if not a huge amount.

I think this is a very narrow minded perspective. There will be a small minority who abuse the system, most though will either be working (thus needing a top up only) or unable to work.

We absolutely should live in a society where those unable to work are supported, and if maybe those who are working need a top up you need to ask yourself why this is necessary.

Also - I work in a finance related role, I see many many many wealthy people try and get out of paying as much tax as possible. As previously posted, I also see many of my wealthier friends desperately trying to get under 100k a year for free childcare (funded by the government). That is money NOT going to the NHS, schools, etc etc and staying in the pockets of some of the richest people in the country, yet the ones you begrudge are the poor ones.

Where is your evidence that benefits are a lifestyle choice for millions. Can you provide any proof other than Daily Mail style shite?

I am comfortable on UC. I am incredibly grateful that money isn't something else I have to worry about on top of having a fully disabled household. I do occasionally marvel that I am comfortable and not massively struggling. But I also often wish that we are not disabled.

If you have a disabled household, then yes, you should absolutely be comfortable on benefits. It is not like you have the capability to go out and earn more and improve your lot.

What if you have a disabled household and can’t get any benefits to help

If you have disabled family members then they may be eligible for PIP/ DLA depending on age regardless of what other income or savings you have because disability benefits are non means tested.

It’s not really 45p in the £1 though. Like most people you pay tax and NI and pension out that £1 first. In my case that’s 40% as my pension contributions is relatively high so down to 60p and then 55% taper so down to 27p in the pound.

Student loan kicks in for me too so down another 6p a £1.

Essentially at £13 quid ish an hour I am maybe a bit less £3 an hour better off. I do overtime anyway as I wfh and don’t have childcare/ travel costs.

I use to clean hotels and an extra shift only made me about a tenner after travel costs. If I had to pay childcare I’d be worse off.

It is difficult to balance as not all employees will have the same barriers to work. I found that as a single parent of younger children it paid to work but only about 20 hours a week.

Uc is calculated after tax , NI and pension contributions .

Yes it is on take home pay.

UC is indeed calculated on take home pay. So first you pay tax, pension etc. Then your take home pay is reduced by 55% (effectively not literally I know). Then you pay your expenses that allow you to work. Unless you're quite well paid (which reduces UC anyway) you're barely making anything. There is still quite a cliff edge effect where unless you can get a significant pay increase you are only pennies better off in some cases.

Well said, I have now only taken over time when I don't require extra childcare, so the alternative Fridays my ex takes and picks up the kids from school. Otherwise even with the 85% childcare discount, I am making massive family changes for both reward.