Trans women are still women

[Lostcat]

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

On what lawful basis do you think you can exclude men from what is in fact a mixed sex space?

@Lostcat What facilities for women are you worried TW will lose access to?

What are you doing about this? So for example rape crisis centres, are you going to start up a charity to support TW who have experienced rape? This would seem like a sensible idea?

Or (as I suspect) the point is that TW can access women’s areas because the point is about access being a form of validation.

Sorry but women have had enough of this and we are saying no.

What blows my mind is that what TW seem not to see is that one of the most gendered male behavIour is stepping over women’s boundaries and in claiming that they are being women they are doing the most male thing ever.

but they don’t have to base it on biological sex.

But sex means biological sex, there is not other kind of sex.

Do you not understand that it’s devastating for women’s rights to include biological men in single sex spaces? Transpeople have the right not to be discriminated against but if there is a fair and proportionate reason a provision or service is single sex then it means biological sex.

We’ve been humouring you up to now, but here are your true colours after all. Pathetic.

Haha the only people perpetuating myths are you. You lost, get over it. This race to the bottom of which group is more oppressed is ridiculous. One set of rights does not trump another. There are solutions for everyone if people take the time to stop crying transphobia every two minutes just because they don’t get exactly what they want. The supreme court has made it crystal clear in law that a woman refers to BIOLOGICAL sex at birth. There is no other way to spin that.

Is that a threat?

you’re entitled to believe it’s that’s simple, however it’s really not. Would you tell someone with depression just to get over it ?

I’ve reported.

Disgusting.

I listened to the Lord Sumption interview on R4. He states very clearly that women are entitled to feel safe under the equality act and that is why single sec spaces are there.

He said it would be entirely unreasonable to expect women to have to undress infront of a transwoman. He referred specifically to the nurses taking their NHS trust to court, twice in the interview and said under the Equality Act they had every right to be provided with single sex provision.

Isn't mumsnet brilliant!! TERFs are right.

Are you still at it?

If you think it’s a threat report to MNHQ don’t challenge directly here.

I don’t understand how this is “ldevastating for the exercise of (almost all) trans women’s human rights”. What human rights would they be prevented from exercising? Encroaching on female spaces isn’t a human right. TW can still work, marry, vote in elections, they’re still protected from torture, and from discrimination. Nobody is stopping a TW from going to the toilet, just not a women’s toilet…

What blows my mind is that what TW seem not to see is that one of the most gendered male behavIour is stepping over women’s boundaries and in claiming that they are being women they are doing the most male thing ever.

Exactly. The very men who say they're women are the ones acting in the most male coded way possible.

I thought that! They don’t even bother to show us the tiniest bit of respect do they? Which is exactly what their movement is based on, a total lack of respect for women.

@skipdiddyskip regarding your friend who has made life decisions to disguise herself as a man…no one is forcing her to use women’s public toilets.

Plenty of people avoid public toilets altogether or have to plan ahead for reasons of accessibility. Your friend can do the same - I’m afraid that comes with the decisions she has made.

Regarding other women’s spaces, if she wants to access them, she can, as she is female.

I don't think this is true. The judgement quite specifically mentioned boxing should be categorised by biological sex.

No. Nobody with eyes and a functioning brain believes transwomen are women. I am sick of that fucking mantra being spewed out by idiots. Men can’t bear women to have something of their own. I will not ‘be kind’ to perverts and autogynephiles.

Trans is mental illness masquerading as a civil rights movement.

I’m just adding my voice to this as I believe it’s very very important the number of women who disagree with your stance should speak up. I almost didn’t because it’s so frustrating keep repeating simple facts in the face of such hateful stance on woman’s rights. I’m sure many women read this and think it’s stupid so won’t engage. Those reading and lurking know this is a huge chunk of women.

so sorry what biased media are you talking about? Most news stories have centred trans women in this. You yourself are doing this as you expect biological women to bow down in kindness to biological men.

the EA10 can be applied in all the situations you list as myth so actually yes trans women can be excluded from woman’s spaces because woman means biological.

They are NOT excluded from sports toilets etc etc etc. they are excluded from womens. They can use the mixed sex provision or the males.

You're right.

But this is the entire point of the ruling! If I understand correctly, if the Scottish government's reading of the Equality Act had been accepted, it would not have been possible to exclude trans women with a GRC from single sex spaces, as they would have been defined as equivalent to biologically female. Because they lost, it remains possible to do so.

Transmen are biological females so that is really not a problem - and, as with, TW, they very rarely "pass" anyway. Female humans are pretty hardwired to correctly assess what someone's sex is, it's a survival instinct.

@Lostcat You are so wrong.
You will find out how wrong in the coming weeks and months as individuals challenge policies set by companies and organisations. Challenges will be reduced from what gender to what sex.
Gender as we have seen is chosen, influenced by friends, fashion or style. Sex is constant and unchangeable.

If you want to compete against me as a runner. I am entitled to ask what sex are you? It is clear.

If an organisation wishes to promote some races that include women and men pretending to be women competing on equal terms it may do so. Some (real) women may choose to take part. I suspect they will be few in number. Neither do I see the TV Rights for such a competition making much money.

Women are women

trans women are men for the purposes of providing single sex services under yhd equality act 2010.

THIS IS NOT DISCRIMINATION. IT IS NOT DISCRIMINATORY TO PROVIDE SINGLE SEX SERVICES TO PEOPLE IF THE CORRECT SEX FOR A LEGITIMATE AIM AND TO EXCLUDE PEOPLE WHO ‘FEEL’ LIKE A WOMAN

AND IT NEVER WAS DISCRIMINATORY TO DO SO.

Stonewall lied to you
Get over it.