Trans women are still women

[Lostcat]

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

If a service is not a single sex service then it must be available to both sexes regardless of any gender identity. You can't keep men who identify as men out of a service if you allow men who identify as women to use that service

And you dont think transwomen set off that same trigger? Are we pretending they all pass?

Yes? What does this even mean? Transwomen (which is actually an offensive term for many women - but hey ho who gives a shit about how women feel eh?) are the ones saying they deserve to be in women’s spaces. Transwomen are the reason reason we’re even here having this stupid fucking argument about who is a woman! It is honestly like some people have had bloody lobotomies.

long and short of it is IF you were a woman, your wouldn’t need to be TRANS in the first place! And no, women are not insane bigots for saying you are NOT a woman just because you say you are! This is literal insanity. If you pull off a snail’s shell it doesn’t suddenly become a slug!

please just answer me this, if I read up as a stereotypical transwoman, and say I am trans and that I deserve to be treated as such and that I know the struggles of being trans because I say I’m trans and trans people should let me access trans services and take awards for trans bravery and talk for trans people, would you say that was ok? Would you seriously say, yes, this biological woman deserves her rights to transness and deserves to be treated as trans and anyone who says this is not on is just transphobic and bigoted and is trying to remove women-to-transwomen rights.

And no, there is no difference between this and the biological men you are supporting to believe they are women. But please do enlighten me.

My concern is how will this be enacted in the public domain, for loos, for example?

In institutions, my guess is that you can appeal to the policy-maker of that institution.

But a Transwoman, who is clearly male, continuing to use female only public loos, that will just keep happening, won't it, by a small number of unpleasant TAs who want to make a point and who want to be openly provocative?

I suppose, to answer my own question, it won't be.

You don't get it, @TaggieO . It's not about banning 'transpeople'. It's about banning MALES.

I really have. Many , many times. The “gender criticals”, on the other hand, are completely unable to provide a precise and coherent explanation of what they mean by “woman”. But whenever you point out that their definitions dont stand up to scrutiny they start telling you you are not allowed to talk about that because it’s “whataboutery” and some people on twitter said we must not speak of it.

Transwomen are not women.

So you disagree with basic Biological science. So you are a science-denier, and a flat-earther.

Why can't trans women have their own knitting group? @LadyTwattington
I think Sue should tell Mabel to start her own group.

You can't start blurring the lines between bio women and trans women in groups that are for women. Because trans women are NOT women. They can dress like a woman, wear make up etc, but they are not women.

I doubt many women would join a group that was advertised as being for women and trans women.

The issue comes at the coffee break- will Mabel join the girls in the Ladies or will he go to the Gents?

If natal men do that then they aren't just going into there to pee are they? They are going in there to do something bad...like stare, harass, intimidate..or worse. They will show their hand very quickly and will expect to be challenged. A transman is not going to behave like that.

What I mean by woman is an adult human female

I saw This from Pink News - aghast at how biological men would now be searched by male police offices. I think it’s the total lack of self awareness, they didn’t seem to have similar levels of horror about how for years women have had searches done by makes, had to share changing rooms and hospital wards with men. Having to have intimate examinations done by men.

it is all about how men feel. There’s a lot on the news today about how teachers are being subjected to misogyny in the workplace place. I’ve seen Andrew Tate being mentioned a lot, yet schools have also been pushing a misogynistic rhetoric, telling girls to shut up and be kind to the men. To be tolerant of misogynistic ideologies/religions. One of my ex work colleagues (ex Plymouth brethren now evangelical Christian) went to great lengths to tell me that women shouldn’t preach and should dress modestly - her son is being taught the same. We’ve seen the same with the child grooming gangs.

We are seeing a rise in groups that think women should take second place, that we aren’t equal and should stand and make way for the men.

We are seeing ever more concentration on how women look - compelling many women to undergo risky surgery, young girls to inject toxins into their faces .

Misogyny underpins so many movements in our society - we can’t stop fighting - women have finally won a battle, we need to keep on fighting the war - the trouble is identifying the enemy is getting ever more complicated

a woman is an adult human female

India is not every bloody trans person.
Just like not every Muslim is a terrorist nor every immigrant here to take our jobs and council housing. You can't just say that all trans women are misogynists who hate women. The definition of a prejudice against a group is that you stop acknowledging individuals within a group.

"Prejudice against a group is a negative attitude or feeling towards individuals based solely on their membership in that group. It's a preconceived judgment, often unfavorable, that doesn't take into account individual characteristics."

It's very symbolic, because it is males "marking their territory".

Yes but then you have to explain precisely and objectively what an “adult human female” is

At my kids' school there is a little boy who was rebranded as a girl in year 1, aged 5. The children shrugged and got on with it, he's accepted as a girl by them all. Accept now it's pretty awkward, because they are 10, doing swimming and separated into boys and girls communal changing rooms and showers. It is not fair on the girls or the little boy that he has to change with them.

How is it legal for parents to say to a 5 year old boy
You are a girl
and then get everyone to go along with it? Surely that's abuse? It blows my mind.

I haven't seen any of your previous posts or anywhere you've answered this question - i don't follow this subject as a rule. Please would you mind summarizing? I'm asking in good faith. I really and truly want to understand.

Women have 2 XX chromosomes.

Does that answer your question?

There are a few very very rare cases where some people are hermaphrodite and the line is blurred but they are very rare indeed. Some go on to have surgery. But fundamentally they will still be XX or XY.

They've existed for decades and until Stonewall started with their agenda nobody was bothered.

Because maybe Mabel lives in a village? Maybe Mabel's neighbours know and love her and have been friends with her for 50 or 60 years? Maybe Mabel is fully integrated with the women in that village despite being a trans woman? Maybe Mabel's female friends enjoy her company?
Not everyone lives in London, Brighton or Manchester where there is a big enough trans community for separate groups

If you are saying that women cannot even choose to share a group with trans women they know and love them on a transparent and agreed basis, then you are advocating for apartheid, surely?

What an absolute load of bollocks. Biology is very clear, DSDs don't change that, but all I hear from TRAs is that because DSDs exist, biology isn't a perfect way to separate the sexes and therefore should be scraped, but then we should replace it with gender, of which there is zero definition whatsoever.

Define a woman gender and man gender, if your gendered system is so much better than biology.

If you ask in genuine good faith and want to understand I will take the time

What on earth are you talking about?

Women didn't start this argument.

Women tolerated the trans rights lobby breaking one boundary after another until some of us finally said, "Actually, we didn't consent to this and we would like our rights to be respected please."

The violent, misogynistic backlash that ensued from the world's most oppressed and marginalised minority left us in no doubt that this is actually a male supremacist movement masquerading as an equal rights movement and riding on the coat tails of gay and lesbian people.

MRA arguments are what lack precision and therefore become incoherent under detailed scrutiny. No one can change biological sex. Sex is immutable and binary. Thee is no coherent argument AGAINST these solid facts.

I’m embarrassed for you at this point OP.