Trans women are still women

[Lostcat]

AIBU to share what the Supreme Court judgement on the meaning of women in the Equalities Act does and does not do/say/mean.

Although there are now moves to take the ruling and embed discrimination against trans women into uk law, this was not the intention of the Supreme Court judgement. In fact, the judges made it very explicit that politicians, media and activists shouldn’t seek to weaponise the judgement for political gain. Unfortunately that is exactly what people (including a whole host of mumsnetters) are doing.

So what does the judgement do?

Myth: the UK Supreme Court says trans women are not women

Myth: the ruling means trans women can’t claim legal protection as women

Myth: the ruling says you can ban trans women from women’s loos or other women only spaces

What the ruling actually says:
“It is not the role of the court to adjudicate on the arguments in the public domain on the meaning of gender or sex, nor is it to define the meaning of the word ‘woman’ other than when it is used in the provisions of the [Equality Act] 2010.”

The ruling says that in sex-based provisions under the Equalities Act 2010, sex means “biological sex” and refers to one of two biological sexes.

The ruling reiterates that trans women are protected from sex discrimination as women - because they experience the same sexism as women do.

The ruling affirms also that trans people are protected under the law from discrimination on the basis of gender reassignment.

As before (and as the law has stated since 2004) trans women, with or without a Gender Recognition Certificate, should be treated as women and given access to the relevant women’s services - as before, an exception may be made under limited circumstances where the need to exclude trans women may be proportionate (the law gives women’s refuges as an example of a space where this may be necessary, sometimes).

The ruling merely states that in legal references to “sex” the words “man” and “woman” in the sex discrimination clauses of the equalities act refer to “biological” women and men - it is merely about the use of language in legal cases of discrimination.

The very real impact of this on trans and non-binary people’s lives comes from misinterpretations of what is meant or intended by the ruling.
The trans community is fearful because of the inevitable spin manufactured by biased news media and the powerful gender critical lobby (including wealthy and high profile people such as JK Rowling who claim they are “silenced” by trans advocates).

You’re right.

Women have fought for the vote, to not be seen as property, to have their own bank accounts, for maternity rights.

That fight, as far as I see it, has been won. What are we still fighting for? I don’t believe trans women intend to take any of that back from you.

It looks to me like now the above is sorted we’re fighting for… toilets.

Transwomen were accepted as "women" on the understanding they were a very small minority of gay men whose dicks had been removed. Not that women were ever actually asked of course. But yes many felt empathy.

We also knew they weren't actually women. As did they. They were transwomen. What's actually wrong with that identity?

It was kind of understandable that society's entrenched gender roles and homophobia might lead to the crippling dysphoria transwomen described. Feminism works to do away with homophobia and break down the restrictive gender stereotypes which hurt women most. Same team then, right?

Can you see where it all fucked up yet?

Get mad at the straight men with dicks who nonetheless demanded access to vulnerable women. Get mad at the ideology that reified those stereotypes which feminists have been dismantling for decades. Get mad at those who want to sterilise gay and autistic kids instead of joining feminists in rejecting homophobia and gender stereotyping.

It has become patriarchal capitalism on steroids.

But how do we know you’re a biological woman? Because the ideology you so clearly champion says that TIM’s should be given the same rights as biological women, it makes us think you don’t understand the difference.

You’ve spouted an amazing amount of disinformation on here, and you’re clearly not a fan of women who understand biological and legal facts, that usually means you’re a man.

Exactly

This thread doesn’t say trans men are men. Or trans people are people. Just the trans women OP is fighting for. As usual. Why is that? If you are unsure about all this bollocks and are still being kind go google Karen white or AGP. Or go find out what the trans widows got put through

i could quote the OP here: “Dignity, safety, protection from harassment, privacy, access to essential services, protection from cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment and punishment, life”

Are you being deliberately obtuse here?

Toilets yes. Also changing rooms, sports, rape counselling, domestic violence shelters, prisons, intimate care provision, lesbian dating events.

Agree with this 100%. Women don’t need to #bekind - we already were/are. It is the male fetishists who have thrown trans women under the bus.

The reason it is lawful discrimination is because you first define it as a single sex space on the grounds of privacy and decency. Then you bar a whole group with a shared characteristic e.g. men, including TW.

For example you couldn’t make a laundrette a single sex space for women and bar all men. Not even if you had a laundrette next door for men. This is because there is no objective justification.

Good news - these are exactly the protections that are offered under the equality act.

What about people who lost their jobs for stating they believe in biological sex over determined gender?

what about their dignity or right to live without fear?

I am interested in whether gender equality will return to sexual equality and the pay gap will only reflect biological women’s pay against biological men’s pay

Interested to see how much of a difference there really is

And single sex spaces in healthcare, prisons, women only safe spaces eg rape/sexual assault services, women only support groups, changing rooms in leisure facilities, etc etc. More broadly, the right of women to retain their distinct identity as a woman in the eyes of society & the law

Its not just about toilets. Its about legally being able to, in appropriate circumstances, INSIST, on a woman only space. Which means the exclusion of all biological men.

We have TRAs aggressively advocating for men in women’s spaces including toilets, changing rooms, women’s refuges, rape support groups, sport, on boards, in pretty much every space and role that women dare to occupy as women and try to force lesbians to date transwomen aka men. Threaten to harm, murder, rape and torture us when we try to advocate for our rights and safety. But no, apart from all that they’ve been very considerate I guess.

Can you slow down please I’m trying to fill in my ‘fictional things that @Lostcat says trans people don’t have’ bingo card?

But how do we know you’re a biological woman?

I am a woman assigned female at birth. I have always appeared presented as a girl or woman, and I have always viewed myself in this way. I have various physical characteristics typical of people assigned female at birth. There has never been any question or doubt about the fact that I am a “biological woman” to all intents and purposes of what people understand by this.

How do you know this based on an anonymous online post? Of course you don’t, but it’s still true.

And changing rooms, and the right to ask men to leave those changing rooms without being barred/sacked/disciplined, and to be searched by femal police officer, and to have only women in our refuges, rape crisis centres, to not be gaslighted when the bloke next to us in the hospital bed claims they're a woman, for women prisoners to be free from entrapment with male sec offenders…..for women who had their sports medals taken off them by males cheats have those medals rightfully awarded to them, for girls who had their collage scholarships stolen have them rightfully returned to them, women who lost their jobs and livelihoods for daring to speak yhd truth be rightfully compensated…and on and on and on.

Oh my lord, so many people not understanding tbe Equality Act. There is an exemption in the act where organisations and businesses can restrict services, events and even jobs to one sex if they choose to and it can be justified (there are similar exemptions for age). The judgement has just clarified that the sex exemption applies to biological sex only.

The exemption still has to be jusifiable if challenged and organisations can choose not to use them (but they could be open to challenge on that if women feel that decision has discriminated against them).

The issue is many people seem to see the EA 2010 as something set in stone but it is actually a complex framework that sets out the protected characterisitcs that organisations and public bodies have to pay regard to when offering services etc.. sometimes these rights can be competing and case law is used to explore that and add to guidance.

So on the toilets issue - no one is going to be going around checking toilets but if a workplace does not provide single sex toileta it MAY now be open to challenge by women (or men). But rremember reasonable provision is also at the heart of the act so a small cafe with one unisex cubicle would be in a very different position from a large office with multiple floors.

Exactly .

Trans people may be excluded from certain spaces - eg those that cater specifically to biological women- if it can be demonstrated that this discrimination is proportionate (eg refuges). This has always been the case.

It may have always been the case, but many trans people did not accept this. Attempts to exclude them were met with cries of "I am a woman! This is discrimination". The ruling clarifies this and empowers organisations to be able to exclude trans people where appropriate without fear of prosecution.

Nobody was assigned anything at birth. This is magical thinking.

How can they still be something they never were?

In all of this, we are seeing lots of upset trans people because they don't want, fir example, to have the risk of being searched by a male police officer.

This fear is exactly the same fear that women have. We do not want to be searched by a trans woman because we know that they are male.

Same with changing rooms. Trans woman feels too uncomfortable to use mens. But that person in the women's makes them uncomfortable but we should all shut up.

I fully support trans women to live as trans women. They can dress and present however they feel comfortable. But it doesn't mean they are biological women and it doesn't mean we just have to move over as has been the expectation.

We are not stupid. We know there's a world of difference between a confused 17 year old who has taken puberty blockers and Kevin the builder who this week has decided to wear a dress because it gives him a kick.
But allow one and you have to allow the other. And that is where the problems begin and why there is push back.

Where I live there is a transvestite of the old school kind. He's been done for several assaults and groping a teenage girl. He'd meet all the criteria for living as trans but hell will freeze over before I let him in a changing room with my daughter. And that is why we have to have protections in law that mean we can question why someone is in a space without it being us on a hate crime charge.

Registered female at birth then (if you have difficulty with the word “assigned”). I’m not attached to “assigned”, registered female will do.