Page 12 | Shaking with rage, can't sleep, NHS treatment of elderly

Krupkrups · 2025-04-15T23:09:42+00:00

My Grandma (89) has finally come out of hospital tonight finally after nearly nearly 5 weeks. There's been nothing wrong she had a fall nothing broken, nothing but they wouldn't let her go home my uncle has lived with her for past 8 months since his divorce and she had a career who comes on a lunchtime. They said because she didn't have anyone at home which is bullshit, then social services got involved who were a shower of shite, then the hospital 'forgot' to discharge her twice despite my parents, uncle and care team being at home twice waiting. Before going into hospital she could; Get herself and dressed nicely Get Downstairs / upstairs Get herself to toilet and wipe herself - no incontinence pants Make herself food and drinks (hot drinks, kettle on etc.) Do crosswords Move around the house with, slowly and with the help of a stick and frame but she did Her memory was clearly going and she has slowed down cognitively in conversations but she knew we all were still enjoyed face times from my children, still read the paper. She's come out and frankly it's like she's come out of a Victorian asylum, I am heartbroken, she looks deranged when she's awake sunken eyes strange rolling eyes, has lost an absolute load of weight - she was always very slender possibly too slender before now she looks like a famine survivor. She is incoherent most of the time when awake. Can't get out of bed / apparently is imobile - well yes she is now Can't feed herself isn't eating when being fed Is wearing adult nappies which have to be changed and the carers are changing and wiping her mess Is covered in bed sores I am weeping and raging I feel like driving to the hospital and punching the nurses in that ward in the face!!!! What have they done to her.

ruethewhirl · 16/04/2025 15:40

BellissimoGecko · 16/04/2025 07:14

You sound pretty entitled here. You and your family should have been at the hospital to advocate for your grab, help her to drink, make sure she was eating, etc.

The sudden decline you describe is really common after a fall, which is a huge shock to an old person. It’s well known that being in hospital, an unfamiliar setting, can hasten confusion. And a UTI can cause delirium.

Are you sure about the bed sores?

It sounds to me that you are feeling guilty, and taking it out on the nurses. If you never saw your gran in hospital, you have NO IDEA how she was treated.

I’d focus on organising care for your gran, treatment for the bed sores, if there are any, and read up on the ageing process.

OP should feel entitled. Entitled on her grandmother's behalf, to the standard of care promised in the Patients' Charter.

I get that the NHS is falling apart, and that vulnerable patients do need to be advocated for, but you sound alarmingly quick to excuse the hospital's actions. Patients shouldn't need to be advocated for. They shouldn't need relatives there 24/7 to pass them drinks etc. That isn't the fault of individual hospital staff, of course (although as with every profession there are always going to be a few rotten apples, obviously), but of the system. But none of us should just be lying down and taking it.

If the NHS hadn't been starved into near-oblivion by a succession of governments, and was fit for purpose, hospitals would be able to provide the care they were designed to provide. Instead of directing your ire at relatives who naturally want the best for their loved ones, maybe try getting angry about what's been done to this country's health service?

beetr00 · 16/04/2025 15:41

OMG @Smallmercies and @DoingthefullGareth

PLEASE do not not make excuses for the indefensible!

This problem is systemic.

Of course there are angels within the NHS.

Far too many fall back onto the "NHS is broken" though.

Have compassion and speak up if you are a healthcare professional.

Otherwise, NOTHING will change.

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 15:51

The NHS has NOT been starved of money. It doesnt know what to do with it. Isnt it the biggest employer in Europe and its still a bloody mess?

Until we start to tax people and accept that the world is a different place nothing is changed. Forget about the Patients Charter. Its made up nonsense.

ruethewhirl · 16/04/2025 15:53

DoingthefullGareth · 16/04/2025 13:59

Look after them better?

instead we get them stuck in ambulances outside A & E for hours with non life threatening stuff or bed blocking also causing an ambulance and overall drain on resources.

Show quote history

There's a hell of a lot more to preventing falls in the elderly at home than 'looking after them better.' I speak from experience. It is not possible for most families to provide 24/7 supervision of an elderly relative or to reduce their fall risk to zero. Sure, there are negligent families out there and it's not right, but there are also many, many families who are doing their absolute best to safeguard their elderly relatives but who are simply not superhuman.

It's a shame you seem to regard the elderly as such nuisances. Better hope for more compassion if you're ever elderly and vulnerable, eh? I'm guessing you won't resent the 'overall drain on resources' quite so much if you're ever among those in need of said resources.

Bigham · 16/04/2025 15:54

Nothing will change because no bugger wants to fund it out of taxes. And god help anyone have to pay out of any projected inheritance.
If you’ve got well staffed wards with decent working conditions and adequate pay, things function as they should do. It’s as simple as that. If you have minimum numbers of staff on shift day after day everything suffers. Dressings don’t get done, proper pressure area care isn’t carried out, patients don’t receive adequate help to eat or drink.

Alexandra2001 · 16/04/2025 15:57

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 15:51

The NHS has NOT been starved of money. It doesnt know what to do with it. Isnt it the biggest employer in Europe and its still a bloody mess?

Until we start to tax people and accept that the world is a different place nothing is changed. Forget about the Patients Charter. Its made up nonsense.

Not this old chestnut!

Why don't you look at what independent research shows?

..that the UK consistently, pandemic aside, spends less per capita, on healthcare than any other comparable European country.

We've less of everything, staff, beds, equipment, buildings...

..plus an elderly & growing population.

Research also shows that the NHS is one of the most efficient health services in the world.

Bigham · 16/04/2025 15:57

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 15:51

The NHS has NOT been starved of money. It doesnt know what to do with it. Isnt it the biggest employer in Europe and its still a bloody mess?

Until we start to tax people and accept that the world is a different place nothing is changed. Forget about the Patients Charter. Its made up nonsense.

I’d say plough all that excess money into staffing. More of it where it’s needed. The heaviest wards with the most dependent patients not surgical day care for example.
I’ve transferred patients to certain wards and I’m shocked at the staffing numbers and the paperwork removing RNs from where they should be.

SharpLily · 16/04/2025 15:57

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 14:28

Again going to have my tin hat on.

The elderly ARE a drain on the resources of the NHS as they are at present.

More money is poured in and the results are worse and worse. In other countries the family are expected to step up and look after an elderly person and of course there are cultures where the elderly person lives with their extended family.

Until we start to accept that a lot of us are going to go on well into our 80's and 90's nothing is going to change. These elderly people are unable to do a few more hours at work or indeed work at all. Yet their 'demands' are huge on the NHS resources. Bed blocking and such like. Having time to go to the GP time and time again. My friends Mum in her mid 80's is a regular. Knows the key words to use to get an appointment.

My suggestion is that we start to fund elderly care from the time we start work. An extra say 1% that goes into a elderly care pot. Special hospitals set up who specialise in elderly care.

Of course the usual suspects will claim that Amazon should pay, billionaires (the handful that are eventually left!) or even Bill Gates! They wont want to pay for anything that they might not end up using. Well welcome to the real world.

That is what insurance is for. Its a complete waste of money until you or your loved one needs to use it.

No one wants to pay for improvements. They just want others to do it.

Yes,every time I visited hospitals it was full of elderly people on the wards.

Screaming, trying to get out of beds with broken hips. Attacking other patients - I have seen it all. Last visit I found a women who had decided to visit the mens ward which was literally in the next bay. I tried to guide her back because she was trying to get into bed with some poor chap who look horrified. She was also only wearing a pull up. Eventually as I was talking to her to try and persuade her to come back with me a nurse turned up.

Not surprisingly I am still working in my 60's to afford private care. There is no way I am sharing a ward with anyone.

We cannot keep going like this. Lets have a grown up conversation about co payment. Something that makes people quite honestly take responsibility for their own health. Not demand a wheelchair so they can go out for a fag!

There's a lot of sense in what you write. I have a further point to make and it's going to be controversial.

I work for a charity helping old people (not in the UK), and an awful lot of what we see could be avoided. There's this widespread ideology that we should all ensure older people can stay in their own - often unsuitable - home, alone, for as long as possible. It's their right. I have to deal with people in their 80s who are regular hospital visitors for falls etc., living in huge, rambling houses full of stairs, with no heating, mould growing on the walls and generally uncomfortable. They refuse to move on the basis that they insist on being independent, completely ignoring the huge stress they place upon the family who are terrified of what they're going to hear each time the phone rings. However the same family are told that this old person has capacity and that they cannot and must not be forced out of their ridiculous home. There's an element of selfishness there, insisting on staying in this place while everyone else has to run around after you, and you see it every day in threads here along the lines of 'parents have plenty of money but Dad refuses to pay for carers/cleaners/respite care for Mum with dementia and other illnesses'. The same parents also refuse to move to housing with more suitable accommodations such as ground floor bedrooms and bathrooms and no stairs. Meanwhile the adult children are running themselves ragged trying to deal with the stubborn parents, their own families, work and homes.

I know the above sounds harsh but I believe we need to look at a cultural change around how our older people live. Assisted living facilities need to be more available and affordable, residential care shouldn't be seen as a fate worse than death. Old people need to accept that they cannot expect their adult children to give up their own lives to facilitate a false idea of their own independence. Sensible, realistic discussions need to be had and plans need to be in place before the worst happens. An awful lot of old people simply refuse to face their difficult new realities.

People are living longer than ever and something is broken. If we want them to be healthy and comfortable then something needs to change, and it's not just about NHS care.

Glitchymn1 · 16/04/2025 15:58

I’m so sorry OP, that sounds horrific. Happened to a colleagues parent, he was delirious as they weren’t giving him water, he wanted to die. She went against the advice and snuck her own juices in. Father is now at home and very well.

What about PALS? Could they help.

Have you given your grandma water and the complan shakes that build them up?

Dogpawsandcatwhiskers · 16/04/2025 15:58

When DAunt came home in a similar condition to your gran we got wound care and hospital bed organised, but also arranged for her a hot meal at lunchtime as she was too frail to stand and cook (the equivalent of mealsonwheels wiltshire farm type foods). The lunchtime carers could pop it in the microwave to reheat whilst they're sorting her out if one of us wasn't around. She also got prescribed Ensure drinks and we gave her full fat yoghurts etc to build up her calorie intake as she'd lost so much weight in the 10 days she was in hospital. It took her nearly 2 months to recover - she's a tough old bird for sure! 🥰

Alexandra2001 · 16/04/2025 15:58

Amazing isn't it, since the beginning of the year, my DDs dept has been given more money for recruitment and training, waiting lists have gone from 12 weeks to 4 weeks...
Neuro rehab..

ruethewhirl · 16/04/2025 16:01

SharpLily · 16/04/2025 15:57

There's a lot of sense in what you write. I have a further point to make and it's going to be controversial.

I work for a charity helping old people (not in the UK), and an awful lot of what we see could be avoided. There's this widespread ideology that we should all ensure older people can stay in their own - often unsuitable - home, alone, for as long as possible. It's their right. I have to deal with people in their 80s who are regular hospital visitors for falls etc., living in huge, rambling houses full of stairs, with no heating, mould growing on the walls and generally uncomfortable. They refuse to move on the basis that they insist on being independent, completely ignoring the huge stress they place upon the family who are terrified of what they're going to hear each time the phone rings. However the same family are told that this old person has capacity and that they cannot and must not be forced out of their ridiculous home. There's an element of selfishness there, insisting on staying in this place while everyone else has to run around after you, and you see it every day in threads here along the lines of 'parents have plenty of money but Dad refuses to pay for carers/cleaners/respite care for Mum with dementia and other illnesses'. The same parents also refuse to move to housing with more suitable accommodations such as ground floor bedrooms and bathrooms and no stairs. Meanwhile the adult children are running themselves ragged trying to deal with the stubborn parents, their own families, work and homes.

I know the above sounds harsh but I believe we need to look at a cultural change around how our older people live. Assisted living facilities need to be more available and affordable, residential care shouldn't be seen as a fate worse than death. Old people need to accept that they cannot expect their adult children to give up their own lives to facilitate a false idea of their own independence. Sensible, realistic discussions need to be had and plans need to be in place before the worst happens. An awful lot of old people simply refuse to face their difficult new realities.

People are living longer than ever and something is broken. If we want them to be healthy and comfortable then something needs to change, and it's not just about NHS care.

Show quote history

Speaking as someone who is practically on their knees at the moment caring for an elderly parent who is terrified by the very idea of going into a home, I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Bigham · 16/04/2025 16:02

Something I’ve also noticed since the pandemic is a reluctance of medics to have difficult conversations with relatives. That’s why at times our unit is full of 80 plus years old patients, with multiple co morbidities, very poor quality of life, being put through lengthy invasive treatments for what…

Badbadbunny · 16/04/2025 16:05

Alexandra2001 · 16/04/2025 15:14

The proper care of the elderly has always been an issue, back before "Care in the Community" yes we had far more beds, we had huge Geriatric Wards, patients lined up suffering from all types of dementia etc etc.

My mum worked in these, she said they were awful places, after she retired from the NHS, she worked as a Matron in a privately run Nursing Home, the care was far far better but since then, funding for these has been slashed, thanks Austerity!! and beds are scarce, along with decent staff.

100% to the pp who said we need to have some sort of social tax, paid specifically to fund our elderly care... a re invention of National Insurance if you like.
Expecting the likes of Amazon etc to pay is silly.

A good "re-invention" of NIC would be to extend it to all income using the same rules as income tax, so charge NIC on pensions, dividends, interest, property rental incomes, foreign incomes, etc. Maybe also add it to capital gains. Start taxing "unearned" income properly at the same kind of rates that workers have to pay on their wages!

ruethewhirl · 16/04/2025 16:09

Bigham · 16/04/2025 16:02

Something I’ve also noticed since the pandemic is a reluctance of medics to have difficult conversations with relatives. That’s why at times our unit is full of 80 plus years old patients, with multiple co morbidities, very poor quality of life, being put through lengthy invasive treatments for what…

By 'difficult conversations' do you actually mean refusal to treat? Because it sounds that way...

VeterinaryCareAssistant · 16/04/2025 16:20

ElaineBurdock · 16/04/2025 02:15

I don't blame you for being angry. I have lived in another country my entire adult life, but my parents lived in England. My elderly dad was kept in the hospital for a few month when he needed a blood transfusion and meds, even though he recovered after a few days, they kept him there for many weeks after and I don't know why.

My dad developed delirium while in hospital, which seems common for the elderly after they have been independent all their lives and then they find themselves institutionalized for many weeks/months against their will. He was going down hill so very fast, both mentally and physically.

There was a lot of discussion about never letting him go home again, which shocked me. It was like he broke the law and was being imprisoned/punished for it. My mother, who was finishing up treatment for breast cancer, was desperate to have him home. They'd been together over 60 years and needed each other. I couldn't travel because of my own health problems, so it was the most frustrating time of my life.

My dad had Parkinson's, but was still doing okay. A few months before he'd fallen in the garden, in between a fence and a rock wall and my mum couldn't help him up because he was stuck. Mum told me a guy with the ambulance crew, who was talking to someone on his phone at the time, asked her if they had more than 24,000 pounds in the bank. WTH? She was indignant and said of course they did!

I don't understand why the NHS did this. Isn't there a bed shortage there?

I'm not sure why it's obvious someone would have more than 24k in the bank.

They asked that because if there's more than 24k in someone's bank account they have to pay for their own care home. If less than that SS/Council will pay.

BruFord · 16/04/2025 16:20

SharpLily · 16/04/2025 15:57

There's a lot of sense in what you write. I have a further point to make and it's going to be controversial.

I work for a charity helping old people (not in the UK), and an awful lot of what we see could be avoided. There's this widespread ideology that we should all ensure older people can stay in their own - often unsuitable - home, alone, for as long as possible. It's their right. I have to deal with people in their 80s who are regular hospital visitors for falls etc., living in huge, rambling houses full of stairs, with no heating, mould growing on the walls and generally uncomfortable. They refuse to move on the basis that they insist on being independent, completely ignoring the huge stress they place upon the family who are terrified of what they're going to hear each time the phone rings. However the same family are told that this old person has capacity and that they cannot and must not be forced out of their ridiculous home. There's an element of selfishness there, insisting on staying in this place while everyone else has to run around after you, and you see it every day in threads here along the lines of 'parents have plenty of money but Dad refuses to pay for carers/cleaners/respite care for Mum with dementia and other illnesses'. The same parents also refuse to move to housing with more suitable accommodations such as ground floor bedrooms and bathrooms and no stairs. Meanwhile the adult children are running themselves ragged trying to deal with the stubborn parents, their own families, work and homes.

I know the above sounds harsh but I believe we need to look at a cultural change around how our older people live. Assisted living facilities need to be more available and affordable, residential care shouldn't be seen as a fate worse than death. Old people need to accept that they cannot expect their adult children to give up their own lives to facilitate a false idea of their own independence. Sensible, realistic discussions need to be had and plans need to be in place before the worst happens. An awful lot of old people simply refuse to face their difficult new realities.

People are living longer than ever and something is broken. If we want them to be healthy and comfortable then something needs to change, and it's not just about NHS care.

Show quote history

@SharpLily I agree that we need to look at a cultural change around how older people live. My Dad (86) moved to a retirement flat due to his poor mobility but he did fuss for a while about paying for a cleaner/light housekeeper (he does now) even though it helps him out hugely, plus he hates doing chores! I do support my Dad but I live far away and I’m an only child so we need additional help.

Most of us will need support at some point in our lives and I certainly don’t want my children running themselves ragged trying to do everything. It’s not fair.

Fordian · 16/04/2025 16:23

Sadly, getting a care plan in place is often the stumbling block. Kindly, a fall often precipitates sudden deterioration in the very elderly. I’m not surprised you couldn’t believe your eyes from Xmas to now- that’s 14-15 weeks ago.

Sadly the NHS just isn’t set up for specialist elderly care. Even in a geriatric ward, there are rarely enough carers for the increasingly complex needs of people who need to be in a different setting; but the political will isn’t there to tax the population accordingly.

Lobbying your MP is actually going to be more effective than ‘punching nurses in the face’. That attitude is, among other things, a driver of carer fatigue and resignation, unfortunately, compounding an already fraught situation.

My own grandfather, fit, with-it, but 78 had a minor road collision (sideswiped a hedge in his A30) in 1977. He was taken to hospital with a couple of cuts (wing mirror shattered into his elbow) where he went downhill in a matter of weeks and passed, in a nursing home 4 weeks later. A week before he went, he was unrecognisable from before his accident; wizened old man, rather confused and ultimately bed bound, with developing pressure ulcers.

There appears to be a strong correlation between ‘an event’ in an elderly person’s life and a dramatic change in their condition.

HateMyselfToo · 16/04/2025 16:23

I'm sorry this has happened to your Grandma.

This has absolutely been my experience of how the NHS has treated my elderly father. He's been hospitalised a few times in the last 3 years and the neglect from ward staff, leading to longer term deterioration has shocked me. I believed all the hype about NHS staff being angels. SOME of the staff and almost all the healthcare assistants were lovely people. Unfortunately being lovely doesn't translate to getting the care they need.

He's went to a care home for a bit and is now in a nursing home and you have to fight for every bit of dignity for them.
I hate to think how badly people without relatives to advocate for them get treated.

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 16:31

SharpLily · 16/04/2025 15:57

There's a lot of sense in what you write. I have a further point to make and it's going to be controversial.

I work for a charity helping old people (not in the UK), and an awful lot of what we see could be avoided. There's this widespread ideology that we should all ensure older people can stay in their own - often unsuitable - home, alone, for as long as possible. It's their right. I have to deal with people in their 80s who are regular hospital visitors for falls etc., living in huge, rambling houses full of stairs, with no heating, mould growing on the walls and generally uncomfortable. They refuse to move on the basis that they insist on being independent, completely ignoring the huge stress they place upon the family who are terrified of what they're going to hear each time the phone rings. However the same family are told that this old person has capacity and that they cannot and must not be forced out of their ridiculous home. There's an element of selfishness there, insisting on staying in this place while everyone else has to run around after you, and you see it every day in threads here along the lines of 'parents have plenty of money but Dad refuses to pay for carers/cleaners/respite care for Mum with dementia and other illnesses'. The same parents also refuse to move to housing with more suitable accommodations such as ground floor bedrooms and bathrooms and no stairs. Meanwhile the adult children are running themselves ragged trying to deal with the stubborn parents, their own families, work and homes.

I know the above sounds harsh but I believe we need to look at a cultural change around how our older people live. Assisted living facilities need to be more available and affordable, residential care shouldn't be seen as a fate worse than death. Old people need to accept that they cannot expect their adult children to give up their own lives to facilitate a false idea of their own independence. Sensible, realistic discussions need to be had and plans need to be in place before the worst happens. An awful lot of old people simply refuse to face their difficult new realities.

People are living longer than ever and something is broken. If we want them to be healthy and comfortable then something needs to change, and it's not just about NHS care.

Show quote history

SharpLily is 100% correct. I bullied my Mother to move to a retirement complex. She wasnt safe in her old place. Yet I was slaughtered on a thread when I tried to discuss it. I was told I was selfish, to let her be and that I would need to wait until she had a bad fall and then events would take over! She could have fallen, and be found days later as I didnt live close by. I would never have been able to live with that.

Ironically her next door neighbour who seemed to have no family that visited had exactly that happen to her. The police broke down the door and found her days later with her body decompossing.

Eventually Mum went into a care home and died very soon after as she wasnt safe in the retirement complex either.

Strawberriesandpears · 16/04/2025 16:39

HateMyselfToo · 16/04/2025 16:23

I'm sorry this has happened to your Grandma.

This has absolutely been my experience of how the NHS has treated my elderly father. He's been hospitalised a few times in the last 3 years and the neglect from ward staff, leading to longer term deterioration has shocked me. I believed all the hype about NHS staff being angels. SOME of the staff and almost all the healthcare assistants were lovely people. Unfortunately being lovely doesn't translate to getting the care they need.

He's went to a care home for a bit and is now in a nursing home and you have to fight for every bit of dignity for them.
I hate to think how badly people without relatives to advocate for them get treated.

Absolutely terrifying. I'm sorry you had this experience.

I am so scared of old age as I have no family. I'll be left to rot.

MichaelandKirk · 16/04/2025 16:39

Badbadbunny · 16/04/2025 16:05

A good "re-invention" of NIC would be to extend it to all income using the same rules as income tax, so charge NIC on pensions, dividends, interest, property rental incomes, foreign incomes, etc. Maybe also add it to capital gains. Start taxing "unearned" income properly at the same kind of rates that workers have to pay on their wages!

Show quote history

Problem is I wouldnt trust this government to not use the money for something else. Since when has any ring fenced money beeb literally put in a pot and not touched for anything else!

Travsmam · 16/04/2025 16:44

You need to get a doctor to come and see her. A UTI can cause a lot of what you’re describing. Please let us know how she gets on x

Fordian · 16/04/2025 17:14

Smallmercies · 16/04/2025 08:33

Glad you got in a bit of racism there! 😅

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It isn’t racist to point out that not all nursing qualifications are equal.

I left my front line B6 NHS job 2 years ago, because due to Jeremy (C)Hunt’s NHS reforms, announcing 24/7 working when we couldn’t staff safely staff seven 9-5 days caused a massive influx of ‘developing world’ professional grade staff. A team of 8 FTE western trained staff of 2019 is now a team of 20 non-western trained staff. We all left because it had become so unsafe. Many were PATENTLY not qualified and, interestingly none had had their ‘degree’ verified by the HCPC. I know this because they told me, in amazement. One Nigerian guy who I was was friendly with (but thought a principle sign of anaphylaxis was refusing to make eye-contact…) told me whether we ever wondered why the visuals on remote interviews from Nigeria were so bad, forgiving it as being ‘poor old Nigeria with rubbish tech’ as opposed to the interviewee not being the same person who walked through our door 3 months later….

And one, when due to time and personnel constraints once again did a 2 man patslide, a lateral transfer technique (as opposed to the required 3/4 man) on frail elderly patients and was challenged on his poor care, actually said ‘Well, it is not my grandmamma, is it?’

It is not racist to acknowledge these facts.

PearReview · 16/04/2025 17:23

Smallmercies · 16/04/2025 12:28

All of you who are so disgusted with the NHS, why don't you all train as doctors and nurses and be the change you wish to see? Or become hospital volunteers or HCAs. Even one person can make a difference. Or is it easier to moan about "third world" (rather a derogatory term but never mind, we're British, right?) standards?

Why shouldn’t people complain? I am a full time senior NHS worker of decades. Lots of it is broken right now. It doesn’t mean that everyone should thus train to work here? What an odd response.

There are still brilliant individuals. But the systems are creaking and falling apart. Why are you so defensive?