To think the benefits system is humiliating, yet we blame people for not taking low-paid jobs?

[ThatSassyWriter]

People say those on benefits should just ‘get a job’ but the process of claiming can be degrading and many jobs don’t even pay enough to be worth it. Isn’t this a contradiction?

Minimum wage 40 hours = 25k
and you think you can’t survive modestly?

what do you think minimum wage should be?!

I don’t know. When I was made redundant I deliberately stayed unemployed for 6 months so I could access a training programme for long term unemployed. I was given priority and didn’t have to pay. I completed an online form and popped into the job centre every 2 weeks for 15 mins to chat about my successes and my recent job searches. It was easy to avoid work as no one pushed me to work and I was mostly over qualified for the jobs on their database. I had an interview and was able to claim for an outfit and expenses. I was able to join a gym for the reduced rate of £24 a month, as I was on benefits, and swam or went to the gym most days. I didn’t earn as much as I did working but I had more disposable income as things like childcare, rent and discounts kicked in.

Yes there’s a lot of truth in that. With prescriptions costing around £10 a pop, it’s easy to see how the add-ons can make a big difference. There are also social tariffs for things like internet so people on benefits can be paying much lower for the same service.

imo it’s not a simple question of whether a person is better off working in a minimum wage job than on benefits. It’s how much better off they are, once the add-ons are factored in too. For someone to give over 9-5 every weekday, possibly working in a menial, boring or difficult job, plus adding on commute time (and the factors like less time with family, less time to spend looking after your home) - they need to be significantly better off for them to feel it’s worth their while. When the difference is only marginal, people may feel they’d prefer a little less money but 9-5 every weekday to spend as they choose.

I agree that zero hours contracts should be banned, even though they do work for a few people.

But I also think benefits should be time-limited, as they are in most of the world. By all means give a person who has been made redundant 75% of their regular earnings to get them through, but for 12-18 months only.

Why are taxpayers forced to pay for people who won’t work? (Not can’t, won’t)

Work should always be the better option.

Yes

@ThatSassyWriter work is crap, yeah

We've all done some crappy jobs in our time. But that isn't a reason to not work.

I remember talking to someone in my flat share in my 20s. It was a rotten place. Almost literally because we couldn't get the landlord to pay attention to a leak in the bathroom.

She was saying to me, let's face it we all work to avoid living on the street.

I'm 49 and I thought all the rhetoric at school about dreams and aspirations, etc was quite odd. But it's probably got worse.

I don't really know what you're saying here to be honest. If it's that work is crap, yes. If everyone refused to work for that reason, we'd be in trouble.

i've noticed recently that some of my more socialist friends have gone very quiet about minimum wage. Because it's an okay wage now.

All you've done there is made an argument that benefits are too generous

I don't know what benefits are like, so I can't comment.

The thing that annoys me is that companies avoid paying the NMW by hiring people on a self employed basis.

And I think the threshold for free prescriptions, free school meals etc should be higher.

Skilled people like carers and nursery workers should be paid a lot more than they are.

The inflated cost of housing is one of the big problems here. If the cost of renting or buying was in proper proportion to wages then far fewer working people would need to claim benefits

@Huckleberriesno, I’ve made an argument that the differential between working in minimum wage job and benefits isn’t great enough.

And one way of dealing with that would be...

It can be a different situation being made redundant and then having to take a significant wage cut than arranging your life around always being on minimum wage.

I also couldn’t maintain my modest lifestyle on minimum wage. Mainly because I have a mortgage. As a single person paying the same rent as mortgage, I would get (some) benefits. As a single person with a mortgage I wouldn’t. (And I get the argument that the State shouldn’t be there to pay people’s mortgages, but they seem happy to pay mortgages for private landlords…)

This is something I'm puzzled about as well

There's a couple of people I know who were looking at buying a home and suddenly decided not to. I think it's because universal credit gives them something towards their rent, but they would lose their element if they got a mortgage? I don't like to ask such a personal question.

@UncharteredWaters Well a late life divorce left me with a hefty mortgage in my late fifties, my bills have doubled easily since buying my flat, food is much more expensive and I need to run a car. A wage of £25k would leave me very little if anything once I’d paid bills and bought basic food.

What happens if they can't find a job after that?
My role involves helping people find work (not DWP) and there are some very familiar faces coming in regularly. For a variety of reasons they can't get or maintain a job. I don't think they should be made destitute.

Because it's not good for society to have a number of destitute people. The welfare state wasn't set up to be altruistic, it's pragmatic. We'd all be less safe if people couldn't claim subsistence level benefits.

What does the minimum wage have to do with socialism?

I agree that it is detrimental to society as a whole if people fall into destitution and so we need a welfare state which acts as of safety net and prevents people from falling into destitution.
But surely the welfare state should not provide a disincentive for people to work at all?

@Mrsbloggzagree

How many happy, well-adjusted people do any posters know who would willingly choose to live off benefits rather than take pride in being self supporting?

Most people want to be the best they can be. There’s a reason the long-term unemployed who fit the definition of ‘scrounger’ are like they are. Adverse childhood experiences are endemic in this group. They have no aspirations and even less belief that work could be better than a life on benefits. Challenges of working seem insurmountable (no qualifications, belief they can’t cope, worry they don’t posses the right knowledge, etc) even though their explanation will often be “well why should I work?” in defiance to those they deem judging them.

I do wonder if people forget that benefits are paid for by other people getting up in the morning and going to work which isn't always a happy and supportive experience. I've had friends on benefits who had to answer questions about where their partners lived. It was stressful for them. A lot of adult life is stressful though.

I'm sorry you feel that benefits can be dehumanizing but everyone needs to be a grown up about it and accept that they are receiving support from others labour. Not all taxes are paid by James Dyson or other multi-millionares, they also come from nurses, bus drivers, teachers, cleaners - people in difficult jobs who get up in the mornings and go to work.

I'm pleased we don't have people on the streets but work needs to be encouraged.

This kind of language is part of the problem. When you get a low paying job, you are given zero respect and language like leaching, scrounger, scum, lowlife, unambitious, stupid, lack of self respect, lack of work ethic….all heard by people who are lower earners and still need to claim UC. I was a single parent, full time teacher who tutored and exam marked for years. I was still entitled to tax credits for much of that time. I did my best, was never unambitious, stupid, or without self respect and my work ethic was as high as it possibly could have been. But I still heard stuff words like scrounger said loudly within my earshot.

My children are all grown up now - 2 in university, one on an apprenticeship but if I could do it all again, I would put my children first, and I would sit on benefits for the duration. Might as well live it if I’m to be accused of it.

Have a think about the language you use around decent, hardworking people who are claiming what they’re entitled to. And remember that we need people doing the shit jobs - doesn’t mean someone earning minimum wage is less of a person without dreams or ambitions than a higher earners. People working 40 plus hours a week do not deserve to hear others view them as just leaching scroungers. Many of us on long term benefits are doing the best with the cards we were dealt.

You're really not making any sense. Claiming benefits is dehumanising, so people therefore choose to claim rather than to get a job? That’s bonkers.

And to be honest, it is perfectly reasonable to have to meet conditions and to have your claims checked if you are applying for benefits. I’m certainly not saying the system is perfect, but if you want charity you sometimes have to accept the conditions that come with that.

I agree with a PP, employers should pay living wages not just NMW. The problem in the UK is the benefits system props up low pay and part time hours. If you work full time you should be able to afford a good standard of living without needing top ups, but that’s not the case for many.

to the pp who asked about socialist friends

Maybe I should've said left-wing.

So historically, they have complained about a minimum wage being far too low, but they even they now think it's fine

I think there's an issue with the difference between the lowest paid people in an organisation and the highest paid people myself but that's very separate to this conversation.

Work versus benefits - 100% believe in the welfare state. I'm puzzled by this post because it implies that work should be more fulfilling or fun or something. The reality is it just isn't.

We work to get bills paid. That's the sum of it for many of us.

re the point about humiliation, no one has ever described it to me like that. I've known people who are really upset that they have to go and claim. But they've never said anything about the staff or feeling humiliated.

it's funny, I've always been under the impression that the Tories were awful with benefits but now, I'm not so sure.

@ThatSassyWriter if work is bad and benefits are bad what magic are you looking for?