Continuation of 'Going to Heaven' thread

[SorcererGaheris]

I was taking part in the discussion and bringing a pagan polytheistic perspective (which is very much a minority in these sorts of discussions.)

@Mistyglade

Speaking as a person with religious views here (I am a polytheist pagan occultist) - I personally do appreciate the planet (well, the nice bits, anyway.) A lot of Pagans enormously appreciate the beauty of the physical world, as respect for nature is built into a number of pagan practices (but paganism is so big and diverse that you don't have to venerate nature in order to be a pagan - I'm just pointing out that a love of nature is quite common.)

Regarding blowing things up, I don't think you'll find any reports of pagan polytheists doing any such thing, so...

I don't think the present is less important than the hypothetical afterlife. (I also don't believe in the concept of a Heaven/Hell or places of eternal reward or punishment.)

However, some people do like to think about the concept of a life continuing on from this one and try to formulate their perspective on it. I would argue that there are justifiable reasons to believe in some kind of afterlife; people have personal experiences which they interpret to suggest that there is some continuation of life. There are people who have experiences in which they appear to have contact from deceased spirits (mediums.) Parapsychology research into mediumship has yielded some data which suggests that at least some mediums might be communicating with something/someone beyond this world.

as a pagan polytheist, while I certainly believe all the deities exist

All of them? All the Greek, Roman, Celtic, Norse, Central American etc Gods exist? How do you reconcile all the differences between them? The world can't have been created the way they all say they do. There can't be 100 different gods that make the sun rise on the morning, or take you to 100 different versions of the afterlife. And if you do believe that they all exist, does your version of paganism believe the Christian god exists alongside them? Because paganism used to mean that you don't believe in the Christian/traditional god but you believed in others. Has that changed?

If your gods don’t give life, aren’t in control of anything and aren’t all-seeing, all-knowing or all-powerful, what actually makes them gods?

@KrisAkabusi

Yes, all deities. My particular interest is in the Celtic pantheon of deities (though the deity that I'm engaging with currently is Hekate of the Greek pantheon) but while I may not have personal interest in the vast majority of deities and do not seek them out, I still believe they exist as independent beings.

Your point about creation - most pagan polytheists are not mythic literalists, and don't actively believe that the Gods had any role in creating the world or making the sun rise. I wouldn't totally dismiss the possibility of deities having some involvement, but just as equally, it's entirely possible that they had no involvement at all. My belief in the deities' existence is not predicated on them being responsible for creation and the workings of this world.

The afterlife - I personally believe that the spirit world is potentially as diverse as this physical world. Just as there are different countries and cultures in this world, I see no reason why there couldn't be as much diversity in the spirit world. So there could be many varying realms/worlds within the spirit dimension of the afterlife.

I believe that Jehovah (the deity honoured by Christians/Jews/Muslims) exists, yes. I just disagree with their perspective that he is the only deity.

I'm not sure if Paganism ever meant that pagans did not believe in the God of the Christians; they simply did not care to engage or worship that deity. Maybe some believed he existed in addition to the other deities. Maybe some did not believe in Jehovah's existence. Regardless of what pagans in the past thought, Paganism is nowadays a broad cover-all term for a variety of different religions and beliefs, so it's quite hard to define. There isn't one specific set of beliefs that applies to all Pagans (not all pagans are theists, some are atheist.) So there is a diversity of thoughts amongst pagans. Regarding polytheists specifically? I'd say it's common for polytheists to accept that the monotheist God of the Christians/Jews/Muslims exists - we just don't believe he is the only God and we have no interest in honouring him or engaging with him ourselves.

@Swiftie1878

Well, the idea that being all-knowing, all-powerful and giving life is required in order to be a deity is a concept arising from monotheism. Polytheism has different concepts and definitions of what makes something a deity.

I would say that what makes an entity a deity is that it is a non-material entity which has the most significant amount of power/influence in comparison to other entities (so the Gods have the greatest level of power), other types of entities (nature spirits, spirits of the human dead, fairies, etc) have power/abilities, but not as much as deities.

Of all the non-physical, non-human entities that I believe in, I see the Gods as having the most power, as being (in general) at the top of the food chain, if you will. But that does not equate to them being all-powerful or all-knowing.

Thank you for your answer. It’s interesting.
So they have the highest level of power, but over what?

@Swiftie1878

Not necessarily complete power over anything in particular, but the greatest level of ability, if that makes sense. The ability/power to influence particular areas/matters, and a greater ability than other entities.

In polytheism, different deities have their own individual associations/spheres of interest/spheres of influence, so they've never been seen as holding power/influence over everything.

The Irish Goddess Brigit, for instance, is associated with poetry/healing/home and hearth. So if you want help with poetic inspiration, she'd be a good deity to ask (as are others from other pantheons with similar associations.) However, Brigit would probably not be so helpful if you needed help with a maths test.

Each has their particular sphere of skill and influence, and while they may have some ability with outside areas, it's not going to be their main/highest level of expertise.

I don't believe that deities hold absolute, complete power over even the fields with which they're associated. If we take deities that are associated with various elements of the weather - I believe such deities can have some sort of metaphysical influence over weather, but I do not believe they are in control of it, nor that they are responsible for manifesting/creating it. I suppose the way I'd describe it is that I believe the deities can potentially work with - or manipulate/influence - physical processes in this world. But I don't view them as the overriding creators/controllers.

@SorcererGaheris What evidence is there that they powers over anything or anyone? I don’t believe they are different from mainstream gods - they don’t exist and don’t do anything.

I am a polytheist pagan occultist

What does that even mean

@SorcererGaheris Thanks for answering the questions. I do think your answers are mad, but I do genuinely appreciate the time you took.

@KrisAkabusi

You're welcome. I accept that numerous people are going to find my way of thinking strange, hard to understand or even 'mad', as you say - depending upon their own perspectives, and the fact that there is, I would posit, a lot of cultural conditioning against polytheism/occultism in the West. That's why polytheism and occultism are such minority positions in the Western world, but we do exist, and such perspectives are common in pagan, polytheist and occult spaces. If people ask in good faith, then I will seek to explain to the best of my ability.

@ThisUniqueDreamer

It means that I am a polytheist, a pagan and an occultist.

If you want to know specifically what those three terms mean.

Polytheism means belief in multiple deities, so a polytheist is a person who believes in multiple deities. Many modern-day polytheists believe in the existence of all deities from all pantheons, but will only be interested in engaging with specific Gods and Goddesses from specific pantheons that interest us personally.

For example, my interest lies largely with Celtic deities. While I believe other deities exist, I have no interest in approaching (most of) them; it's the Celtic pantheon that has caught my interest.

A pagan is someone who practices some sort of pagan faith. Many modern-day pagans are polytheistic, but some are atheists. I engage in pagan practices, thereby the moniker of 'pagan' applies to me. I don't necessarily always use it as my preferred descriptor, but it does apply, and I sometimes use it when describing my religious identity.

An occultist is someone who practices occultism. There's a lot of overlap with occult practices and paganism, although you can certainly be one without the other. I practices occultism (witchcraft/spells, etc) so that makes me an occultist as well.

@Parker231

I don't expect you to believe they exist or can do anything. My initial point to you was simply that modern pagan religions have caused no harm or conflict for the world and therefore it would not be correct to say that the world would be a better place without them.

As far as evidence goes - if you're talking only about scientific evidence, there is none. However, I personally accept other forms of evidence (such as people's personal experiences.) So going with those, I would count as evidence the times that polytheists have reached out to these deities for help, and (as they see it) the deities have responded and helped cause things to go in their favour. I count that as a form of evidence myself, but I understand that you probably wouldn't.

@Mischance

I do believe the spirit world is likely to be a better/happier place than this world (though I don't believe in concepts such as Heaven and Hell) - but the way this current time period is now, I'm not totally sure that I would take steps to extend my life if that was an option.

For those who do, I'd say it's because - although they may believe the world to come is better - there is still enough that they enjoy/appreciate about this world that means they'd like to stay for as long as they can. If someone has strong attachments here, it's natural that they'd want to try to stick around.

Even without religion humans would find reasons for violence / war. Over land / resources / power etc, it’s just in our nature.

@JorgyPorgy

Yes, hatred and intolerance/conflict certainly wouldn't stop. I suppose it could be argued that if some religions (or, more particularly, certain versions of particular religions) didn't exist, then some forms of conflict and bigotry would fade away. So perhaps there'd be a bit less prejudice and violence. But that applies to specific branches of specific religions.

The non-existence of modern pagan faiths would not, in itself, make the world a better place, simply because they don't cause problems for the world at large.