in thinking this is unfunny and unreasonable playgroup behaviour?

[totalmisfit]

just picked dd (2.2) up from playgroup. it's an informal affair, just run in the local church hall by a couple of seemingly nice middle-aged women. She's been going there for quite a few months now and seems to love it. However, quite often of the 5-7 other kids there, she gravitates towards the older ones of about 4 yrs old.

Today when i went to pick her up, it seemed she was playing hide and seek with two of the other kids. seemed to be going ok. Then one of the women who runs the playgroup came up to me and said, laughingly 'She keeps going up to them and trying to play, and they keep shouting "go away x!! go away". She seemed to find this hilarious

So i said, 'oh that's not very nice. they should let her join in' and she said, still laughing 'well she doesn't mind she just starts copying them and saying "go away x (her own name" herself'. I tried to say that there would come a time when she would realise she was being left out/rejected by them and it would hurt but was told 'well by that time she'll know how to play the game properly'

apparently they were playing well with her apart from this particular game, but I have seen these two particular children being unkind to her on quite a few occasions previously, ie taking toys away from her, telling her to go away when she tries to join them, refusing to sit next to her at snack times. Now i feel guilty for leaving her there at all, i'm wondering if i should just take her out permanently and try and find somewhere else. But then perhaps i would be sending her the wrong message about how to deal with these situations. And it is pretty much normal 4 year old behaviour, isn't it?

normal 4yo behaviour but not what you would want from a childcare setting. ime playgroups can be way more laid back than a nursery would be allowed to be. i wouldnt be happy with my child being treated like that but you might struggle to get them to change. talk to them first of course, but if you are not ok with it carrying on the same i would consider moving her quickly before she is properly settled.

yes it's normal. Maybe she can be encouraged to play with the others more her own age.

The staff there should definitely be encouraging the older children to be kind and let her play. It is not the children's fault per se, ,more the fact that they are not being pulled up on it.

I would not allow my older DS to talk to my younger DD like that, and I don't really see why anybody else should.

Maybe have a look round for somewhere else? at least check out some other places, taht can't hurt.

chamaeleon - i will try and have a word tomorrow (if i can summon the courage)

Laurie- i did try talking to her on the way home, saying 'if y and z are being unkind, are there any other children who you can play with'. Then i remembered that she's only 2 and probably doesn't know what i'm on about... so i suppose i could speak to one of the women in charge about asking them to encourage her playing with other kids. Or stick around myself for a while. Trouble is she's very independent and doesn't tend to do what i, or anyone else asks her to, as a matter of course.

I only have one ds (3.5 yrs) so I can't be certain but I often see ds wanting to join in games and being told 'no go away'. I have also seen him do this sometimes.

My view is that ds has to learn to deal with being excluded in a positive way rather than trying to change the normal behaviour of 3/4 year olds.

1st - I let him keep trying to join in and I take quite a lot of comfort from the fact that he rarely gets too upset by these rebuttals but that he keeps plugging away for a while. Often he is sucessfulbut sometimes not.

2nd If he does get upset and comes to me about it I take the tack 'Well sometimes people don't want to play, but I'm sure there is someone else who does want to play and I may make a suggestion that he go and ask the name of/play with a child that is on their own'

It is often difficult to break in to a group of 2-3 children to play with. They key is to not get upset if you can't and just to play with someone else.

I meant one of the daft bats could encourage her, not her herself

mingming - i thought along the same lines - what if i had an older child, or if she was older and had a younger sibling, what would my policy be? and of course it would be 'play nicely and be kind to your younger brother/sister' so i don't see why they shouldn't try and enforce it at the playgroup. saying that i have seen them try to get the older ones to share, but again, they dont' tend to listen, or act on what they're told.

tbh 2 years old play very differently than 3-4 year olds do. I do agree that the nursery needs to encourage the 4 year olds to be kinder but they should also be steering the 2 year old to more appropriate activities if the older children don't want to play with her.

laurie - i know, i'm just having a slow-brain day today

I agree with lazycow. That's the problem with small settings IMO.

lazycow - i agree, i will have a word about them steering her in this direction tomorrow and see if the situation improves. i don't want to move playgroups that much at the moment as we might well be moving (hopefully) in a few months anyway and don't want to have to move her twice unless it's necessary.

Children are cruel, this is really just the start so it's best that she gets used to being in this sort of situation and how to deal with it (ie finding someone else to play with), because as soon as she reaches school it's going to happen all the time, kids fall out with eachother more often than they have school dinners!

I would expect softly softly intervention with the 4 year olds from the staff too - they should be facilitating the formation of appropriate social skills amongst their charges

children CAN be cruel but at just two I don't think it's obligatory that she deals with this. At this age and stage she needs adults around her to help her if other children are being cruel to her. Time enough when she is four or five, for her to learn about how to deal with it IMO. Do you really want her to go? Because there are many many playgroups which you can go to WITH her, where you can intervene yourself when she needs help. Could you hold off until she's nearer three and would then get a funded place at a more 'professional' setting?

So yes if this were me I'd certainly talk to the playgroup helpers, as a start. And go from there based on their response and how your dd is - if she seems oblivious and isn't bothered I guess there's less to worry about, than if you feel her confidence is being knocked at all.

I think I too might look around for another playgroup, as the staff don't seem very helpful.

But your expectations on older children might change once you are in that situation.

Of course, you'll want your older child to be kind to their younger sibling- but to always have to play with them? When that certainly means they won't be able to play in a way that suits their age? You might find that's a lot to ask even from siblings, let alone total strangers.

I believe I was a good and protective sister but I still spent a lot of time asking my little brothers to go away. And frankly, even as adults we demand grown-up time when we are out with our own friends, so why shouldn't a 4yo when they've got their chance to meet up with their friends of the same age. Calling it cruel seems exaggerated.

IME this sort of situation needs a vigilant adult to see when the little one is irritating the older ones and needs to be steered away.

Don't leave her there.

cory - i don't think i'd always expect an older child to play with a little one at all. I certainly appreciate that all kids need peers of their own age predominantly, when it comes to playmates in social situations. I suppose i just think the adults involved could/should do more to at least make sure she's distracted away when she's not wanted and encouraged in the direction of kids her own age.

It breaks my heart to see (or hear of) them being so mean to her. I suppose i had seen the signs that they treated her as an irritation when i used to stay with her, for the first few weeks she was attending, but i was hoping once they got to know each other a friendship might develop, as she really loves other children (maybe a little too much for her own good in this case) .

all i know is I definitely can't go on with her in this situation as i would be going against my instincts. i already feel guilty enough about the whole thing.

Yes, I agree, totalmisfit. It's the adults who should be doing something here. There are loads of things they could do to stop her feeling rejected; it's the sort of response that becomes automatic when you have children of different ages.

I'd go with your instincts and look around for somewhere else.

Oh god take her out - sounds horrid. The whole point is to have fun