Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why jurors think manslaughter is acceptable as "loss of control" when death takes over 1min?

87 replies

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 10:58

Curious to see what legally constitutes "loss of control" I suppose. Keep seeing women being murdered by strangulation then the guys finishing it off with a weapon they've left the room to get being given under 10 years because they clearly "couldn't help themselves".

Strangulation takes a long time...

OP posts:
MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:44

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:43

Well maybe the thread should have been headed up- lets moan about men. Rather than using an example of one case of murder to then go on a tangent of man hating.

Like I said you don't seem to be getting what's discussed. That's fine you can just leave.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:46

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:44

Like I said you don't seem to be getting what's discussed. That's fine you can just leave.

I understand what some posters are discussing of course. But you can read the man haters a mile off.

Tiswa · 27/03/2025 13:46

The charge will be murder but able to introduce manslaughter which is an awful lot easier to prove.

As I said the intent to kill is quite difficult on these situations and given it has to be 100% you can see where the reasonable doubt creeps in.

Voluntary Manslaughter is when the intent was to cause gracious bodily harm (which is the loss of control) can still carry a life sentence

sentencing is always the judge because it is a technical decision

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:49

Tiswa · 27/03/2025 13:28

It is about mens rea - the guilty mind or the idea of intent. Murder at its heart is about doing something with the intent to kill. Which is actually hard to prove in some instances that the intention of the act caused death.

Manslaughter is simply the fact that doing the act caused the death.

Sentencing is where the other difference is. murder is a mandatory life sentence - manslaughter is discretionary.

the fact it is seen as Manslaughter isn’t the issue - on the strict definition of the law it has to be - you can never 100% prove intent. Where the problem lies is the discretion of sentencing and the lower sentences that can be given out

Jurors have no control over that - a guilty manslaughter verdict could easily give a life sentence. It is the judge that decides on that

Mens rea is an interesting concept - the idea that the same outcome (death) can be judged differently not based on how it came about necessarily, but on what the killer was thinking at the time. So I can understand the idea of self defence - logically that death came about because the victim threatened me and I felt I had no other choice. But if I decided to kill the victim because he pissed me off, there is a different judgement based on whether he pissed me off ten minutes ago and I suddenly went about killing him versus if he is pissed me off last week and then I planned his death. I can't really see what the reasoning is behind that - surely the fact that he's dead either way is the main thing?

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:50

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:46

I understand what some posters are discussing of course. But you can read the man haters a mile off.

Ok. If the 'man-haters' are bothering you, there are loads of other threads you can go to.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:52

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:50

Ok. If the 'man-haters' are bothering you, there are loads of other threads you can go to.

OP replied to my comment and I replied to hers and for some reason you have become involved. So do you mind.

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 13:52

I'd be more likely to agree it was spur of the moment if it was done in a public place - mown down by a car, someone pulling a gun on someone who pushed past them.

As I say I think location and environment are key to many of these cases. They don't ever do it where they can be stopped by other people or caught. How is that not premeditation?

OP posts:
MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:52

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:52

OP replied to my comment and I replied to hers and for some reason you have become involved. So do you mind.

I absolutely don't mind. Happy to help.

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 13:53

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:43

Well maybe the thread should have been headed up- lets moan about men. Rather than using an example of one case of murder to then go on a tangent of man hating.

It is difficult, if not impossible, to discuss the topic of murder/manslaughter without mentioning male rage.

Pudmyboy · 27/03/2025 13:55

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:38

Your post is about murder. People who murder. Your using it as an excuse to bash men. Hate to break it to you but most men dont murder.

Most murderers are male

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:55

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 13:52

I'd be more likely to agree it was spur of the moment if it was done in a public place - mown down by a car, someone pulling a gun on someone who pushed past them.

As I say I think location and environment are key to many of these cases. They don't ever do it where they can be stopped by other people or caught. How is that not premeditation?

Edited

I think you make a good point. I'm sure there are lots of examples of people losing control in a public place - road rage, bar fights, that sort of thing, but I agree if someone is super controlled in public then suddenly loses control in a private setting, that seems suspect to me.

It reminds me of developments around rape defence - the idea around 'reasonably believing you have consent.' It addresses the circumstances of the offence, such as whether the person was drunk etc. which is more nuanced then just 'did he ask' or 'did she say no.'

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:55

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 13:53

It is difficult, if not impossible, to discuss the topic of murder/manslaughter without mentioning male rage.

Yeah I have no problem with that, that's logical

Tiswa · 27/03/2025 14:00

@Thisissuss but it is the intent - all of this does indicate a premeditated intent to cause harm. Which is the threshold for voluntary manslaughter.

the issue is can you prove an intent to kill beyond all reasonable doubt and that is far harder

It is why attempted murder is the hardest of all to prove

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:04

This might be a stupid question @Tiswa but why does intent matter?

Thisissuss · 27/03/2025 14:04

@Tiswa I still think manual strangulation has to be the hardest to prove that is WASN'T intentional though, by definition. You can feel them, see their face change colour, have to keep up the pressure while they are fighting for their life.
A gunshot/car crash/stabbing - all seem to be far less premeditated in that once the second of application is done, there is no turning back.

OP posts:
Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:06

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 13:55

Yeah I have no problem with that, that's logical

Then why refer to posters as man-haters?

RightThenFred · 27/03/2025 14:07

nodramaplz · 27/03/2025 13:00

I think the difference is- murder is planned/premeditated.
Manslaughter is in the moment or unintentional

Murder can be in the moment. It's the intent that matters - even if the intent only forms a second before the killer deals the fatal blow. If they think "I'm going to kill you" and do so, it's murder. Though, apparently, if they say they "lost control", they get a lower sentence for murder 🙄
Edit - I clearly did not read the thread properly,. sorry

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:07

Pudmyboy · 27/03/2025 13:55

Most murderers are male

And? Most men dont murder. She starts off pretending she wants to discuss jurors and the law and court cases but within 5 seconds talks about we must teach our sons about this. Boys can behave in all sorts of ways but the vast majority dont need teaching that murder is wrong.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:08

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:06

Then why refer to posters as man-haters?

One poster! Please stop ok.

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:25

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 13:29

In a world where men are expected to be strong and silent and express no emotion except anger, the 'loss of control' argument does make sense - it is a logical consequence of people being unable to deal with their emotions properly.

Ideally in a world where you expect people to use their fucking words, you don't accept a situation in which someone becomes so unable to cope that they snap. Situations in a which a person is being manipulated, coerced or abused are different to my mind - in those situations you could argue self defence rather than loss of control, although you could see how loss of control would apply in a situation where a person feels hopeless and genuinely thinks they have no other way out.

Anger is not the same as aggression. Anger is a valid emotion for all. Aggression is a choice and not the same as anger.

They do not lose control. They make a choice.

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:34

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:08

One poster! Please stop ok.

You want me to stop having a conversation on a discussion forum? No, I’m not going to do that. 😂

I think PP is right that we need to have conversations with our sons about violence. There have been quite a lot of articles written about this recently. Some parts of the media are beginning to wake up to the reality of male violence. But we have a very long way to go still, and as parents we have a part to play.

Winifredtabago · 27/03/2025 14:36

Waitingfordoggo · 27/03/2025 14:34

You want me to stop having a conversation on a discussion forum? No, I’m not going to do that. 😂

I think PP is right that we need to have conversations with our sons about violence. There have been quite a lot of articles written about this recently. Some parts of the media are beginning to wake up to the reality of male violence. But we have a very long way to go still, and as parents we have a part to play.

I meant stop going on to me about something that I didnt ask you about. I wasnt talking to you. I stand by the fact most men know murder is wrong and this bollocks of- oh we need to teach boys how to behave otherwise they might turn into murderers is just nonsense.

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:40

whippy1981 · 27/03/2025 14:25

Anger is not the same as aggression. Anger is a valid emotion for all. Aggression is a choice and not the same as anger.

They do not lose control. They make a choice.

I don't disagree. My argument is that the idea of 'loss of control' makes sense in the context of men not being allowed to express any emotion except anger. It doesn't logically make sense at all.

Swirlythingy2025 · 27/03/2025 14:40

The concept of "loss of control" as a partial defense to murder under UK law is legally complex and requires careful consideration of both the circumstances and the timing of the defendant's reaction.

Under Section 54 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, the defense of "loss of control" allows a defendant to be convicted of manslaughter instead of murder if they were provoked, lost control, and acted in a way that a person of normal tolerance might have reacted similarly.

This defense aims to recognize that, while the killing was deliberate, it was influenced by a loss of self-control due to a qualifying trigger.

However, the idea that a defendant could claim "loss of control" when the death results from a prolonged or sustained action, such as strangulation, is legally contentious. Strangulation, as you correctly note, takes time often over a minute or more and can reflect a level of deliberation that challenges the claim of a momentary loss of control.

In such cases, the act may appear less impulsive and more calculated, undermining the validity of the defense.

The critical issue lies in the statutory requirement that the loss of control must be "immediate" or "sudden."

A sustained act like strangulation that lasts over a minute often points to a level of composure and planning inconsistent with a sudden loss of control. While it is possible for someone to experience intense emotional disturbance, the length of time involved in strangulation raises doubts about whether the defendant truly acted without the ability to control their actions.

As for cases where a defendant leaves the room to fetch a weapon, this may further undermine the claim of loss of control, as it suggests time for reflection and an opportunity to regain composure.

The jury’s decision to accept the defense of loss of control in such cases could be seen as controversial, as it involves the subjective perception of the jurors about whether the defendant's response was proportionate and whether the loss of control was truly sudden.

Ultimately, the defense of "loss of control" must be carefully scrutinized in these situations. In cases where prolonged actions like strangulation are involved, and where there is evidence of calm deliberation (such as retrieving a weapon), it would be legally appropriate to challenge the legitimacy of such a defense.

The jury’s verdicts, particularly those that seem to result in disproportionately lenient sentences, might warrant further judicial scrutiny to ensure that the law is applied fairly and that such defenses are not misused to minimize accountability for serious offenses.

MoMhathair · 27/03/2025 14:45

The more I think of the concept of loss of control the less it makes sense to me. It implies that any person, given the right circumstances, could lash out enough to kill another person. Given how seldom women kill other people, that doesn't seem true to me, otherwise there'd be a fairly equal number of 'loss of control' incidents across the sexes, wouldn't there?

Which brings me back to the 'sex and age' aspect of the definition - is loss of control seen as more likely in men?

Swipe left for the next trending thread