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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

STOP calling people "a Karen"

385 replies

PaperwhiteTheFriendlyGhost · 24/03/2025 07:50

Why are people so lazy and ignorant? Ironically they use it in some instances to berate someone for a perceived insult. Maybe this should be on Pedants' Corner, I don't know.

OP posts:
legsekeven · 25/03/2025 22:23

SailorSerena · 25/03/2025 21:45

The human brain evolved to make judgements and see stereotypes as a survival method. If you can guess how someone is going to behave by looking at them and the way interact with other people you have a better chance of surviving die to avoiding risk and finding your tribe where you belong. It's part of being a social species that is good at spotting patterns. That is why Stereotypes are most of the time correct, if they weren't they would serve no purpose. Stereotypes aren't just for racists and it's ignorant to assume so.

Yes true!! I mean all blond women are thick as mince aren’t they! Forewarned is forearmed

RhaenysRocks · 25/03/2025 22:51

SailorSerena · 25/03/2025 21:45

The human brain evolved to make judgements and see stereotypes as a survival method. If you can guess how someone is going to behave by looking at them and the way interact with other people you have a better chance of surviving die to avoiding risk and finding your tribe where you belong. It's part of being a social species that is good at spotting patterns. That is why Stereotypes are most of the time correct, if they weren't they would serve no purpose. Stereotypes aren't just for racists and it's ignorant to assume so.

What a load of absolute bollocks.

ItchyLegItis · 25/03/2025 22:53

Karen, is that you?

LikeWhoUsesTypewritersAnyway · 25/03/2025 22:55

ItchyLegItis · 25/03/2025 22:53

Karen, is that you?

Behave! 😂

SailorSerena · 25/03/2025 23:02

RhaenysRocks · 25/03/2025 22:51

What a load of absolute bollocks.

And yet collectively agreed on by many psychologists. Just because it pisses you off doesn't make it bollocks.

Howmanycatsistoomany · 25/03/2025 23:14

SailorSerena · 25/03/2025 14:48

Oh come on the "I want to speak to the manager" hair cut has been a thing for YEARS now.

Honestly had no idea. In my defence I live in France where bobs are iconic and Karen is not a thing.

JazbayGrapes · 25/03/2025 23:28

i thought it was an American thing? I never heard it here in RL honestly

healthybychristmas · 26/03/2025 01:03

I stopped listening to a podcast because of this. It was a pretty rubbish one anyway: what did you do yesterday? I can't understand why people can't see how offensive it is.

nomas · 26/03/2025 04:50

ThePoshUns · 25/03/2025 07:23

Could you given some examples of this please?

Edited

I think the poster means ones like these

a

O

8

Theunamedcat · 26/03/2025 05:59

JazbayGrapes · 25/03/2025 23:28

i thought it was an American thing? I never heard it here in RL honestly

Some one called me the Karen of all Karen's yesterday in a local England based group they think they are hilarious

PaperwhiteTheFriendlyGhost · 26/03/2025 06:21

Theunamedcat · 26/03/2025 05:59

Some one called me the Karen of all Karen's yesterday in a local England based group they think they are hilarious

That was joking though wasn't it?

OP posts:
JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:44

NRTFT so this may have already happened.

YANBU at all. It’s completely misogynistic. However there’s a small contingency of MNers who say using Karen is kicking back against racism that all the white women apparently display and that the right to do this trumps everything else, even when women actually called Karen say it’s hurtful, and if you object to Karen being used then you’re racist.

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:45

nomas · 26/03/2025 04:50

I think the poster means ones like these

a

O

8

Wow, three examples. It definitely deserves a worldwide insult for all women.

Funny how depsite the face men perpetuate the vast majority of racism, and almost all the violence, they’re don’t get a personal nickname

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:46

legsekeven · 25/03/2025 22:23

Yes true!! I mean all blond women are thick as mince aren’t they! Forewarned is forearmed

I wonder if that poster agrees with stereotypes around POC. Or just those who have the audacity to be white women?

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:47

SailorSerena · 25/03/2025 23:02

And yet collectively agreed on by many psychologists. Just because it pisses you off doesn't make it bollocks.

So does it include stereotypes about black people?

Would love to see these academic psychologist research papers that say stereotypes are usually true

RhaenysRocks · 26/03/2025 08:15

@SailorSerena yes please, links to the peer reviewed academic journals please.

GrouachMacbeth · 26/03/2025 08:29

The woman in America, the central park one, made false, fraudulent, racist, malandrist allegations. Calling her a "Karen" was massively underplaying her crimes.

Why surrender and get upset about the term as used now in the UK? Reclaim it. I'm an assertive somewhat knowledgeable confident woman who will confront poor service when appropriate, lies and mistruths.
I'd rather be a "Karen" than a shivering, shrinking " I don't want to cause a scene but I was charged £60 for this dress that's labelled £20, but if you are right and I'm sure you are then I'll go home and moan and do nothing".
I am Spartacus - no, Karen!

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 08:49

Stellaris22 · 24/03/2025 08:24

I work in retail and don’t use the term myself, but I don’t see it as rude or a way to ‘shut women up’. It’s describing women who are rude and nasty to staff. Or should retail staff meekly put up with unpleasant behaviour?

I think retail staff should perhaps learn that in every job you have to deal with difficult people and it’s a life skill, and responding with discriminatory slurs or being unhelpful isn’t going to improve anything

SailorSerena · 26/03/2025 08:52

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:47

So does it include stereotypes about black people?

Would love to see these academic psychologist research papers that say stereotypes are usually true

Edited

Gladly.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/insight-therapy/201809/stereotype-accuracy-displeasing-truth

It's a very long read but interesting. The useful bits would be

Second, contrary to popular sentiment, stereotypes are usually accurate. (Not always, to be sure. And some false stereotypes are purposefully promoted in order to cause harm. But this fact should further compel us to study stereotype accuracy well so that we can distinguish truth from lies in this area).

That stereotypes are often accurate should not be surprising to the open and critically minded reader. From an evolutionary perspective, stereotypes had to confer a predictive advantage to be elected into the repertoire, which means that they had to possess a considerable degree of accuracy—not merely a "kernel of truth."

The notion of stereotype accuracy is also consistent with the powerful information-processing paradigm in cognitive science, in which stereotypes are conceptualized as "schemas," the organized networks of concepts we use to represent external reality. Schemas are only useful if they are by and large (albeit imperfectly) accurate. Your "party" schema may not include all the elements that exist in all parties, but it must include many of the elements that exist in many parties to be of any use to you as you enter a room and decide whether a party is going on and, if so, how you should behave.

and

Conceptual, methodological, and ideological obstacles notwithstanding, research on stereotype accuracy has been accumulating at quite a pace since the 1960s. The results have converged quite decisively on the side of stereotype accuracy. For example, comparing perceived gender stereotypes to meta-analytic effect sizes, Janet Swim (1994) found that participants were, “more likely to be accurate or to underestimate gender differences than overestimate them.” Such results have been amply replicated since. According to Lee Jussim (2009) and colleagues at Rutgers University-New Brunswick, “Stereotype accuracy is one of the largest and most replicable effects in social psychology.” Likewise, reviewing the literature, Koenig and Eagly (2014) concluded that, “in fact, stereotypes have been shown to be moderately to highly accurate in relation to the attributes of many commonly observed social groups within cultures.”

Written by a PhD and has a bunch of references to papers at the end.

Stereotype Accuracy: A Displeasing Truth

The prevailing sentiment which sees stereotypical thinking as faulty cognition and stereotypes themselves as patently inaccurate is wrong on both counts.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/insight-therapy/201809/stereotype-accuracy-displeasing-truth

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 26/03/2025 08:54

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:44

NRTFT so this may have already happened.

YANBU at all. It’s completely misogynistic. However there’s a small contingency of MNers who say using Karen is kicking back against racism that all the white women apparently display and that the right to do this trumps everything else, even when women actually called Karen say it’s hurtful, and if you object to Karen being used then you’re racist.

Sadly I think you have summed it up up quite succinctly. Also can I add those who use the term often have a weird hairstyle obsession but hey ho. Takes all sorts.

Also poster - excellent username 😊

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 26/03/2025 09:28

Howmanycatsistoomany · 25/03/2025 23:14

Honestly had no idea. In my defence I live in France where bobs are iconic and Karen is not a thing.

Oh blimey sailer would be stuffed in France 😀

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 09:33

SailorSerena · 26/03/2025 08:52

Gladly.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/insight-therapy/201809/stereotype-accuracy-displeasing-truth

It's a very long read but interesting. The useful bits would be

Second, contrary to popular sentiment, stereotypes are usually accurate. (Not always, to be sure. And some false stereotypes are purposefully promoted in order to cause harm. But this fact should further compel us to study stereotype accuracy well so that we can distinguish truth from lies in this area).

That stereotypes are often accurate should not be surprising to the open and critically minded reader. From an evolutionary perspective, stereotypes had to confer a predictive advantage to be elected into the repertoire, which means that they had to possess a considerable degree of accuracy—not merely a "kernel of truth."

The notion of stereotype accuracy is also consistent with the powerful information-processing paradigm in cognitive science, in which stereotypes are conceptualized as "schemas," the organized networks of concepts we use to represent external reality. Schemas are only useful if they are by and large (albeit imperfectly) accurate. Your "party" schema may not include all the elements that exist in all parties, but it must include many of the elements that exist in many parties to be of any use to you as you enter a room and decide whether a party is going on and, if so, how you should behave.

and

Conceptual, methodological, and ideological obstacles notwithstanding, research on stereotype accuracy has been accumulating at quite a pace since the 1960s. The results have converged quite decisively on the side of stereotype accuracy. For example, comparing perceived gender stereotypes to meta-analytic effect sizes, Janet Swim (1994) found that participants were, “more likely to be accurate or to underestimate gender differences than overestimate them.” Such results have been amply replicated since. According to Lee Jussim (2009) and colleagues at Rutgers University-New Brunswick, “Stereotype accuracy is one of the largest and most replicable effects in social psychology.” Likewise, reviewing the literature, Koenig and Eagly (2014) concluded that, “in fact, stereotypes have been shown to be moderately to highly accurate in relation to the attributes of many commonly observed social groups within cultures.”

Written by a PhD and has a bunch of references to papers at the end.

This is an opinion piece not a peer reviewed research paper. It rests on the laurels that we stereotype on physicalities - as quoted, you wouldn’t ask a toddler for directions or an elderly person to help shift a sofa, because we stereotype.

This is not the same as a research paper which shows stereotypes are true. Especially discriminatory stereotypes

And it CERTAINLY doesn’t show that “most stereotypes are correct” is a belief “collectively agreed on by most psychologists”

nomas · 26/03/2025 09:37

JandamiHash · 26/03/2025 07:45

Wow, three examples. It definitely deserves a worldwide insult for all women.

Funny how depsite the face men perpetuate the vast majority of racism, and almost all the violence, they’re don’t get a personal nickname

You did see she asked for exampkes, right? Not an encyclopaedia?

Nameychangington · 26/03/2025 09:38

RufustheFactuaIReindeer · 26/03/2025 09:28

Oh blimey sailer would be stuffed in France 😀

How does anyone in France know who to accuse of being racist if they speak up for themselves in any way? I'm surprised society hasn't entirely broke down over there.

SwornToSilence · 26/03/2025 09:39

names have been stigmatised for decades. Think Tracey or Sharon. It’s evolution of language. Stop being a Karen about it