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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Adolesence (again)

12 replies

LolaLouise · 22/03/2025 09:22

Ive seen a few threads on here about this show, but not many comments on the part that struck me and i wish they hadnt included.

I wish they hadnt put into the show that Katie was bullying him. Him being bullied on a wider scale by peers etc is fine for the story, Id hazard a guess that being bullied makes a young person more susceptible to these extremist views. But saying she was one of the bully's kind of justified a reaction from him - thoughobviously notto the extent it did. If they wanted the "manosphere", red pill, misogyny, incel, the andrew tate effect, to be the focus of how social media is negatively affecting young people, then the act of her rejecting him, something she was perfectly entitled to do, something innocent, was enough of a reason and i think it would have made the information on how distructive and dangerous the red pill effect is on young males even harder hitting. Making her into a bully just wasnt necessary.

If the whole premise of the show isnt for drama, its a though provoking piece to highlight the affect the internet and SM can have on a seeminly normal teenager from a relatively normal family, and the far-reaching affects of that influence, then showing how a simple rejection from a girl escalated, would have been much more thought provoking and harder hitting. I feel.

OP posts:
SemperIdem · 22/03/2025 17:27

Well, the point there that adults are often entirely clueless as to what their children’s online worlds actually are.

It was also underlining that Katie not being the “perfect” victim didn’t negate the fact that what Jamie did was murder.

Bullying doesn’t justify murder. What an odd thing to think, op.

fatphalange · 22/03/2025 17:34

I agree. It was a real missed opportunity to elaborate on the theme they chose to go with, and also educate viewers who hadn't heard of red pill/Andrew Tate effect/incel culture. Muddled programme. Shame.

TelephoneWires · 22/03/2025 17:50

Yes I know what you mean. She wasn’t really fleshed out at all as a character and we don’t know all of what happened between them. We only know that her best friend thought she was the only person who thought she was ok and that she wouldn’t go out with Jamie and publically accused him of being an incel. But why did she do that? Did he turn nasty when she rejected him (before the murder obviously) or was she just being mean for no reason. I guess she was a real person and not necessarily perfect but yes it would have been good to know a bit more.

SchoolNightWine · 22/03/2025 17:56

fatphalange · 22/03/2025 17:34

I agree. It was a real missed opportunity to elaborate on the theme they chose to go with, and also educate viewers who hadn't heard of red pill/Andrew Tate effect/incel culture. Muddled programme. Shame.

Agree with this.
I was talking to a friend last night who thought it was a great, hard hitting watch, but still didn’t know what incel or who Andrew Tate was. I felt they should have made more of this as thought that was the main point they were trying to get across.

TelephoneWires · 22/03/2025 18:07

I think his motives were meant to be complicated and not just one thing. He wasn’t encouraged in his own interests by his parents and felt inadequate, he had anger issues a bit like his dad, he believed that he was being bullied and he spent a long time on the Internet but we don’t really know what that taught him. I think the program was made to make us ask questions rather than to give answers. The police woman did say that it was more important the victim was remembered and she was angry that it was normally the perpetrator but I guess this drama was about Jamie and his family and not about Katie.

PsychoHotSauce · 22/03/2025 18:22

I'm not even sure she was bullying him, he just felt slighted. His friend shared her nude pics and Jamie was like what an idiot, now we won't get any more. Then he targeted her specifically because she was at a low ebb and was superficially nice to her because he thought her self esteem was low enough to be grateful for any male attention now. He saw her as damaged goods and vulnerable, and then became enraged at the idea that she still rejected him. How dare she?

Ashley Walters' character jumped to bullying but I think that was before he had got a lesson on the manosphere from his son. I might be wrong though.

latetothefisting · 22/03/2025 18:34

SchoolNightWine · 22/03/2025 17:56

Agree with this.
I was talking to a friend last night who thought it was a great, hard hitting watch, but still didn’t know what incel or who Andrew Tate was. I felt they should have made more of this as thought that was the main point they were trying to get across.

I feel like people who say stuff like this want real paint by numbers, common denominator TV
There were multipel references throughout the 4 episodes to Andew Tate, incel, red pill, 'that guy that popped up when I was only searching for the gym.'

If they made it anymore obvious it would have become an after school teachable special. What do you want, an OTT scene of Jamie being sent a video, watching it and going 'Wow this man gets me?' Then googling 'Andew Tate?' and reading his website outloud.
It would be ridiculous and unrealistic. If your friend is that interested then the onus is on her to look it up herself, not for it to be spoon-fed to her.

The whole point of the show is that misogyny in 2025 is a) insidious and b) multi-faceted, not just nasty men making overtly sexist comments.

The Andrew Tate type stuff is ONE influence, but so were comments from kids at school, the family influence (dad's anger issues and stereotypical gender roles), societal expectations (being good at football/boxing vs drawing), wider male role models (the other dads who made fun of him for being rubbish at football, the male teachers who either only managed to keep order by being very strict and shouting - essentially out-alpha-ing the pupils, vs the one who couldn't handle them and looked as though he was heading for a breakdown), lack of female friends, girls he did like not liking him, etc. It would be too simplistic to say that if it wasn't for the influence of people like AT he never would have done what he did - all the other kids in the school were also aware of the same videos but he was the only one who murdered someone!

WRT Katie "bullying" Jamie we only got one side of the story. You could easily have her POV that she heard him making fun of her for her naked photos. Then he comes round her house and asks her out, she says no - note Jamie didn't mention what happened next. Did he just say okay or did he kick off and insult her more? If the second and he came out with more stuff like he said to the psychologist - that she was "weak" and other boys would have raped her not just murdered her, was she incorrect in calling him an incel, if he was displaying incel-like behaviour? Was she bullying him or just reacting to him insulting her?

CaptainMyCaptain · 22/03/2025 18:42

PsychoHotSauce · 22/03/2025 18:22

I'm not even sure she was bullying him, he just felt slighted. His friend shared her nude pics and Jamie was like what an idiot, now we won't get any more. Then he targeted her specifically because she was at a low ebb and was superficially nice to her because he thought her self esteem was low enough to be grateful for any male attention now. He saw her as damaged goods and vulnerable, and then became enraged at the idea that she still rejected him. How dare she?

Ashley Walters' character jumped to bullying but I think that was before he had got a lesson on the manosphere from his son. I might be wrong though.

This. Katie was also a victim of the Andrew Tate style misogyny because she was persuaded to send a boy topless photos which were then distributed throughout the school. The writers didn't go further into her life because that wasn't the story they were writing. You can criticise a drama or any work of art on the basis of many criteria but not because it just wasn't the story you wanted it to be.

Londonmummy66 · 22/03/2025 18:48

Actually it rather resonated with me about the real case of Elianne Andam. The scumbag who killed her went out with a knife as the day before he felt disrespected by the girls and couldn't "let this slide". THere is a big group of young men and boys who think that they are automatically owed respect by women and if they don't get it then the females need to be punished/taught better....

Poppyseeds79 · 22/03/2025 18:54

It's not really 'bullying' if she was just calling him out for his attitude and misygony. Plus since the dawn of time kids have said shit to each other. It doesn't usually cause them to murder their peers. If anything I think it just demonstrated his rage that a girl he perceived to be "weak", and lower than him still rejected him.

...'Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them'.

jumpintheline · 22/03/2025 18:59

I don’t think she had to be the perfect victim and I like it when it’s more nuanced, it’s more true to how life is.

I know it was deliberate to exclude them, but I did find myself wanting to know more about Katie and her family though.

MissyB1 · 22/03/2025 19:17

I think it was an important point about all young people being vulnerable to poor decision making about their online behaviour. Yes this show was primarily about issues with boys and men, but it's important to remember girls can succumb to peer pressure too, sending nudes, and getting involved in unhealthy and unhelpful slanging matches online.

Katie's parents won't have had a clue about her topless photos, and the comments she was making online.

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