Issue over lack of personal condolences

[SorcererGaheris]

A situation has recently occurred in which I truly don't believe I've been unreasonable or strange in either my thinking or actions (or lack of actions, one might say) and thought I might throw it out here.

I understand some people skim or don't read the full introductory posts thoroughly, but I'm going to try to give as much context and information as I can in this, so I ask that people do read this post fully.

I have a close friend whom I've known for 15 years. One of the few proper friends he has; he doesn't have a broad or overly active social life. His father died in 2002 (this friend is 63), but his mother (aged 90) is still alive, and for as long as I've known him has lived in Scotland (friend and I live in the south-east of England area.)

My friend has had a rocky relationship with his mother for ages; according to him, she once told him "I love you but I don't like you." (Full context - my friend can be a rather difficult person at times; he's very strident in his views and can often come across as belligerent and uncompromising. He also enjoys debating/arguing about them and will often bring contentious issues like politics up.) So I'm not trying to blame his mother for their relationship; I think they're probably both at fault to a degree, but I can see how my friend can be difficult to get along with. He and his mother have, on numerous occasions, clashed over the phone, and on occasions when they've been visiting each other.

Anyway, in the 15 years of my knowing my friend, I have met his mother in person a sum total of TWO times, on occasions when she's come to visit my friend (she also visits his cousin, with whom she stays when she visits.) She can't stay with my friend, because he lives in a shared house; he literally just has one room that's his own.

So his mother and I have no personal relationship at all; she's just the mother of a good friend of mine and we've hardly ever interacted. We barely know each other. He'll often mention me/mention things going on in my life when he has phone conversations with his Mum, just as he'll chat about her to me, so we each hear about the other, but there's no personal relationship/connection between us.

At the end of January, my friend's brother died unexpectedly, so I naturally gave sympathy to my friend and he knows if he needs support, I'm there. He hadn't been overly close to his brother in their adult life (his brother had some serious mental health problems) but they kept in contact and according to my friend had been very close as children/teenagers. I had no relationship with his brother at all and had never met him in person. Years back, I did add him on FB and we'd occasionally had some brief interaction on there, but that's all.

So, to reiterate: I never met his brother and only sporadically had brief interaction with him on FB. In fifteen years, I've met my friend's mother TWICE and never had any communication with her outside of that.

My friend's mother is now angry and upset with me because I haven't sought to get in touch with her to express my condolences over her son dying. When my friend first told me about this a few weeks ago, I was stunned; it had never crossed my mind that she would expect or even want me to do this, because the two of us don't have a personal relationship of any kind. I'm just her son's good friend. (As I also said before, I also don't have contact details for her, though I can easily get them from my friend.)

I truly don't think I've acted out of turn in not thinking to get in touch with her - to me, it doesn't seem like the normal state of affairs, to personally phone or write to someone you don't really know to give condolences. My relationship (friendship) is with her son (my friend) so I naturally personally gave condolences to him.

I just really don't believe that I've stepped wrong here. If his mother and I actually had a relationship, that would be different. Or if I'd had a relationship with his brother. But I don't/didn't.

So far I haven't attempted to contact her, for several reasons:

One, I don't feel comfortably speaking over the phone to someone who is apparently very angry with me at the moment.

Two, I feel that if I offered condolences to her now, it would be a forced, and therefore hollow gesture that doesn't really mean anything.

Three, according to my friend, she's suggested to him that he should disown me because of this. (I think this is a complete overreaction and makes me actively not want to contact her in any way.)

So: I'm NOT looking for views on whether I should contact her in some form or not (maybe I'll end up doing that anyway.)

But, given the fact that she and I have no relationship of our own, SURELY I was not unreasonable in my initial assumption that she would neither desire nor expect me to contact her to express condolences. (An incorrect assumption, as it turned out, but I think it was a perfectly reasonable assumption to make.)

@melonalone

It would be unavoidable, I think. My friend has Stage 4 pancreatic cancer and while the treatment he's getting is keeping it more or less stable for now, that's not going to last forever. Whatever happens in the future...our paths are inevitably going to cross again at some point.

Since she's spent most of her life in England, though, I would have thought that she would recognise that what may be done culturally (in this scenario) in Scotland is not necessarily something that people in England would think to do.

It depends on whether she was bereaved in her time in England, she may just think everyone has the same experience and so wonders why her sons close friend hasn’t done something that’s culturally normal where she lives. To be honest I was surprised when a good friend reacted differently to our mutual friends loss, expressing surprise that I had contacted her mom - until that point I just assumed it was the done thing - which is silly when you think about it.

Rituals around death can be particularly tricky, I wouldn’t give it too much headspace.

Unless he was saying it in a look another example of my batshit mother then I’d be wary. The fact that he thinks he’s between a rock and a hard place it seems. He isn’t, that’s the concerning thing that he’s giving her opinion headspace.

I think it’s to do with her age as well, expectations and traditions at 90 are vastly different to now. In your position I’d have asked the friend to pass on my condolences but it’s done now. Why is it likely you’ll meet her again in the future, given her age, distance from you and the fact that you’ve only met her twice in 15 years? I’d shrug and move on honestly.

edit - seen your post saying that your friend is unwell and so it’s inevitable your paths will cross. Yes indeed it may be inevitable, but you don’t even really have to acknowledge it with her. Pass on your condolences through your friend and that’s the end of it. If you and your friend shut down the conversation then it’s done.

@batsandeggs

It's likely that I'll see her again at some point, as my friend has a terminal illness. Although his mother is 90, she seems to be in overall good health. So while she could pre-decease my friend, it's equally as likely (if not more likely) that my friend will pre-decease her.

This whole drama is so strange. If you saw her at her son’s funeral you would say sorry for your loss, give her a bloody card, shake her hand and then move away.

He is creating this whole problem by relaying all the info to you and you’re dragging it out unnecessarily. Tell him you don’t need to know what his mother thinks of you and then never mention it again.

Have you all forgotten that you’re adults??

I would send a nice card now to his mum, and express how sorry your are for her loss. Ask your friend to tell her that you didn’t want to bother her while her grief was so raw and new, but you have been thinking of her and send your condolences.

Did you not both go to the brother’s funeral? I’d have thought that’s the moment to express condolences face to face.

I don't necessarily think I'm a people-pleaser generally. Like, I think I'm generally respectful and considerate of others, but I don't go out of my way to be an excessive people-pleaser, I don't think.

In the case of this particular friend, I perhaps to cut him some slack in some respects and accept that some of his oddities/way he does things is just the way he is.

I'm autistic, so I can relate to not always talking or thinking or understanding things in a way that a lot of society expects me to. There are times when I seem to process, understand and interpret things in a different way than many others; it's like certain connections in my mind either aren't made, or made in a different way. So to a degree, I'm fairly understanding if my friend acts in a way that isn't necessarily considered 'normal' or the 'done thing' - within reason, that is!

Yes, I certainly want to stay out of their interpersonal dynamics, but I think what makes this different for me is that this is a personal issue his mother now has with me. And I'm a bit of an obsessive thinker who goes over (mentally) stuff like this and tries to analyse it. Not that it's incessantly running in my head, but perhaps that's why I'm thinking about the situation more than you might expect.

It’s odd, and it sounds like the woman is one to take offence easily.

That said, she has lost one son, and is facing up to the reality that her other son has a terminal illness and may well predecease her. So maybe don’t hold it against her.

That said, I would not, at this point, be calling her, as I don’t think you have done anything wrong. Pass condolences via your friend, then let it be.

All those who have suggested that his mother possibly thinks her son and I are more than "just friends": Normally I'd say that's a good point, but in this instance, she knows that's NOT the case. Our relationship has always been completely platonic. Because I'm one of the few close friends he has, and we see each other often, my friend will often speak about me when she asks him how his life is going/how things are going in general, and he'll talk about general things going on in my life (generally I'm happy for him to disclose those.) So my friend has mentioned, on occasion, men I've been interested in or have briefly had a relationship with. She's very aware that there's nothing romantic or sexual between myself and her son.

@melonalone

I'm presuming you're referring to the (future) funeral of my friend?

What you describe would be more realistic if there were likely to be a decent amount of people at my friend's funeral, but there's likely only going to be a handful. Like, 10 or less? So I don't think 'moving on' from her at a funeral would be so easy. That's if my friend actually wants a proper funeral, I'm not sure if he does. He's only just in the process of trying to get a will sorted out.

@Unbeleevable

Thanks for the suggestion. :) His brother hasn't had a funeral; he didn't want one (and, I believe, didn't have a will.) His brother had passed along to one of his own friends that he wanted his ashes scattered near a property the family used to live at, so that's the plan. But that hasn't happened yet. The idea is for my friend and his mother to travel there later, meet up with his brother's friend and they scatter the ashes together.

That's all fair, and I don't have any personal ill feelings to his mother, other than feeling a bit aggrieved about some of the things she's said regarding me. I'll probably do what you suggested and ask my friend to pass on a message on my behalf, rather than it coming directly from me.

He's said to me that his mother is quite big on what she considers to be "correct protocol."

I think initially he was more understanding of his mother's POV, but he now seems to be more in agreement with how I view things. Especially since I pointed out that when I lost my father several years ago, his mother didn't seek to contact me personally and express condolences for that. And I wouldn't have expected her to! So certainly don't hold that against her. It's just an example of - if she thinks it's correct protocol for someone who's less than an acquaintance to reach out directly, then she didn't follow that protocol herself previously.

It sounds as if this lady has a very small pool of people to send condolences and alongside that a very set idea of ‘correct’ behaviour. I have a very similar set up with the Scottish mother of a friend. Although I have never met her I know a lot about her and the whole family and when she lost her son and later her husband I did write because it felt the right thing to do. She wrote back both times.

In your circumstances, since your friend has limited time, you will almost certainly interact with her, she is grieving and it will cost you a card and a stamp, I would send a card now and say how sorry you are with ( if possible) a memory or two of the deceased brother.

@MatildaTheCat

I may end up sending a note or message of some kind; however there are no memories I can give of my friend's brother - I never met him. We only briefly interacted on FaceBook a few times and I spoke to him on the phone once when my friend was in hospital (shortly before he was diagnosed with cancer.)

So there's really nothing personal that I can say about my friend's brother; there are literally no personal memories to be shared.

Ok, did your friend have a good relationship with him? ‘David has often told me what fun he had with Joe during their childhood, especially on scout camp.’

Or, I really admire how he coped with his illness/ his interesting career/ the fundraising he did for baby elephants/ how he coped with adversity.

Anything that gives it a personal touch would be nice.

@MatildaTheCat

I think she definitely does appear to have a very set idea of correct behaviour, as you put it. In some ways, I think a bit too narrow, but I can accept that someone aged 90 will maybe have some different views of what's expected than I do. (If it helps for additional context, I'm 36.)

I think in some respects she has (what seems to be me) some overly rigid ideas on what's proper or normal. For example, last Christmas, I was really pleased to get a pair of Bert and Ernie socks from my sister (loved Sesame Street when I was a kid and have such fond memories of it now; will occasionally go and look at old clips and songs.) When discussing Christmas gifts with my friend, I'd told him how happy I was with that particular gift, and when he mentioned that to his mother in a phone conversation, she though it was inappropriate for a person of my age to enjoy something like (because Sesame Street is a children's programme.)

I don't think you're being unreasonable but I suspect that it's a cultural/generational misunderstanding. I am Scottish but live in England and know that people in Scotland tend to send cards, attend funerals of people they barely knew, to offer support to the wider family, in a way that people down here (I'm in London) don't. I guess she sees you as an important part of her family's circle - she may hardly see anyone these days and feels she knows you through her son. But from your perspective you have done nothing wrong. Just a misunderstanding on her part.

They weren't overly close as adults (his brother was estranged from the parents for a good 20 years or so (roughly from mid-1980s to around 2004) and also ended up losing contact with my friend during this time. It was following my friend's father's death that they sought out the brother and established relations again (and learned that the brother had since been diagnosed with schizophrenia.) For as long as I've known him, my friend's relationship with his brother has been, well, unsteady at times.

But according to my friend, they were VERY close as children and teenagers and enjoyed being together. So that's something.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother sending condolences to her now. She told her son to 'disown' you and she didn't send you any personal condolences after your father died. She sounds a very difficult woman and I would give her a wide berth.