Page 2 | Helping year 3 child reach greater depth

MrsMrsMrs12 · 2025-03-13T17:15:42+00:00

My year 3 child is currently ARE in all subjects. I think she is very capable of greater depth but she is in a very hectic classroom with lots of SEN and is, I think quite invisible - she is quiet and gets on. can anyone recommend any apps or ideas for fun activities that could help her stretch to GDS? I would prefer not to get a tutor but would look into this if needed. thank you

Melancholyflower · 13/03/2025 21:39

I don't understand why you feel the need to make her do extra work to make greater depth in year 3. If children are struggling to keep up, then yes, help them at home. If a child independently wants to do more, yes facilitate that, but otherwise, the only thing you need to do is make sure they read, and are read to.

OOlivePenderghast · 13/03/2025 21:42

I don’t know if it is true now at schools but we were encouraged to think of year 3 and 4 together. So there were very few children with greater depth in year 3 and more by the end of year 4. The year 3 children hadn’t been taught the curriculum or had enough practice yet to get greater depth.

InvisibilityCloakActivated · 13/03/2025 21:43

TwattyMcFuckFace · 13/03/2025 17:20

What do 'ARE' and 'GDS' mean please?

ARE: Age Related Expectation

GDS: working at greater depth within the expected standard (for writing assessment only)

EXS: Working at the expected standard.

WTS: Working towards the expected standard (for writing assessment only)

HNM: Has not met the expected standard (reading and maths assessment only)

TwattyMcFuckFace · 13/03/2025 21:47

InvisibilityCloakActivated · 13/03/2025 21:43

ARE: Age Related Expectation

GDS: working at greater depth within the expected standard (for writing assessment only)

EXS: Working at the expected standard.

WTS: Working towards the expected standard (for writing assessment only)

HNM: Has not met the expected standard (reading and maths assessment only)

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Thank you.

Honestly, it makes for a much easier read if people just take a few more seconds to type these things when starting a thread.

RandomUserName96 · 13/03/2025 21:47

I think a few posters may benefit from extra reading comprehension tbf

Maybe then they'd appreciate the difference between a Yr 3 child and a 3 yr old

LadeOde · 13/03/2025 22:01

Some posters (re: 3 years old!), are unbelievably rude while making fools of themselves.

modgepodge · 13/03/2025 22:11

surreygirl1987 · 13/03/2025 21:19

Are you actually blaming the SEN kids for her not getting greater depth?!

Just FYI my son is working at greater depth in most areas and has SEN (autistic and ADHD) - he's one of the top two students in the year (in fact, the other student has SEN too).

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I don’t think she’s blaming the kids, but SEN kids in mainstream classrooms without adequate support can take up large amounts of teacher time, meaning they have little time to focus on quiet, well behaved kids who are performing a little above average. It’s not the fault of any of
the kids, nor the teachers. There needs to be more funding to pay for the support SEN kids need. Until that happens, of course teachers focus more on the children with the highest need (either because academically they need lots of help, or because behaviourally they demand it) and the rest get less attention.

JustFeedMeCake · 13/03/2025 22:15

AllFours · 13/03/2025 17:17

She’s 3. Yes, you’re being unreasonable.

This. What an alarming thread. She's three!

Oxide61 · 13/03/2025 22:18

JillAndJenTheFlowerpotMen · 13/03/2025 17:18

Books. Times Tables songs in the car. Pocket money to learn to budget. Go to museums. Watch Newsround. All the sensible stuff: an app isn’t going to do this for you.

All this, plus analogue clocks at home. Encourage her to tell the time herself.

Play games, do crafts that involve measuring, baking.

surreygirl1987 · 13/03/2025 22:20

modgepodge · 13/03/2025 22:11

I don’t think she’s blaming the kids, but SEN kids in mainstream classrooms without adequate support can take up large amounts of teacher time, meaning they have little time to focus on quiet, well behaved kids who are performing a little above average. It’s not the fault of any of
the kids, nor the teachers. There needs to be more funding to pay for the support SEN kids need. Until that happens, of course teachers focus more on the children with the highest need (either because academically they need lots of help, or because behaviourally they demand it) and the rest get less attention.

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Yes she is. She literally explained that her daughter is struggling to attain greater depth because there are SEN kids in the class.

Did she ever consider that maybe her daughter just isn't of that calibre?

This narrative needs to change. Do better.

polinkhausive · 13/03/2025 22:21

My year 3 child is at GD (and also in a class with a lot of children with SEN if that makes any difference).

What I would say we do -

He reads a lot - he goes to bed earlier than his peers (7:30) and there is basically nothing in his room except books so he reads for an hour or two every night

We play a lot of board games - I think these really help develop strategic thinking/problem solving as well as often maths and vocab.

We follow his interests and take him to get books from the library on things he is interested in, on trips to museums and sites he is interested in

I think also underestimated is the physical side - lots of fresh air and exercise helps school performance as well

We aren't perfect parents by any means but this is that I notice we do differently or more so than his peers' parents

oviraptor21 · 13/03/2025 22:26

TwattyMcFuckFace · 13/03/2025 21:47

Thank you.

Honestly, it makes for a much easier read if people just take a few more seconds to type these things when starting a thread.

Show quote history

Or maybe go back to the old system of C which was about average for the class, B and A above average and D and E below. Universally understood and easy to follow.

ParrotParty · 13/03/2025 23:06

surreygirl1987 · 13/03/2025 21:19

Are you actually blaming the SEN kids for her not getting greater depth?!

Just FYI my son is working at greater depth in most areas and has SEN (autistic and ADHD) - he's one of the top two students in the year (in fact, the other student has SEN too).

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Your DC doesn't sound like he has special educational needs. A child can have a disability or be neurodivergent without having additional educational needs.

OliviaBonas · 13/03/2025 23:22

TeacherHatOn · 13/03/2025 20:44

With regards to writing, the most important thing is reading a wide range of texts - both fiction and non-fiction. You've essentially got to write like a published author to be GD in Y6. The best writers I've taught have developed their voice through extensive reading and writing practise. The primary curriculum encourages writing to be far too flowery for the sake of it - a GD writer will be balanced and selective. Read together and have deeper discussions around the text. Highlight the vocabulary, punctuation and the way things are written to make a certain impact. Give her the tools and encourage her to write her own stories/texts.

With regards to reading - obviously the above will be helpful for this too. Again, discussions when you're reading together - what the book is about, what do you think the character is feeling, what could happen next. Look up KS2 or Y3 reading prompts or comprehension questions if needed. Try to make the questioning natural rather than a test, this can take all the fun out of it.

Maths - knowing her times tables inside out will unlock so much of the curriculum. Practise problem solving and reasoning style questions and answers. She will need to have a complete understanding of each learning objective and be able to justify, show and prove her thinking in a number of ways. Consider whether she can explain the concept in different ways, using abstract, pictorial and concrete resources. I like to get my GD children to plan a lesson and teach me a certain concept - this usually highlights the misconceptions I need to teach them to get them to the next level.

Revision books are good but the subject knowledge of the adult helping her will be the most important thing. It's also really important to not push her too far and take the magic out of learning. Always aim to peak curiosity in your approach rather than just asking test-style questions and teaching with memorisation as the goal. I use a lot of 'I wonder what the author is thinking' and 'how can we find this out'. Create a curious learner and set her up with the skills to research herself. Create an environment at home that can help with this too - times table posters in the toilet have been a success in my house.

I'm sure there is more to it but hopefully some of those ideas will help. I want to add that it is also a really amazing achievement to be working at ARE, the curriculum is tough.

100% agree with this! And comments from other teachers. It’s so hard to achieve GDS for writing.

Jeschara · 13/03/2025 23:27

LadeOde · 13/03/2025 22:01

Some posters (re: 3 years old!), are unbelievably rude while making fools of themselves.

This, I could not believe the idiots who who were rude snd incapable of reading a quite clear OP. Bad manners and only one apologised.

modgepodge · 14/03/2025 06:34

surreygirl1987 · 13/03/2025 22:20

Yes she is. She literally explained that her daughter is struggling to attain greater depth because there are SEN kids in the class.

Did she ever consider that maybe her daughter just isn't of that calibre?

This narrative needs to change. Do better.

Show quote history

I have taught classes where some kids did not do as well as they could have done in their SATS because there were SEN kids in the class without adequate support. My attention went on the child who was hitting people/climbing on tables/distracting others, and the 11 year olds who couldn’t read, not on the quiet ones who had potential to reach greater depth with a bit more input.

Was it the fault of the kids with SEN? No. Did I blame them? No. Would some of the children had more personalised teaching and ended up achieving better if they hadn’t been in the class? Yes.

that’s not to say I don’t think they should be have been there. But had the child with obvious ADHD been able to see someone to be diagnosed and potentially have medication more quickly things might have been different. Had there been additional teachers/TAs available to provide targeted support to those working very behind, things might have been different.

Creamsnackered · 14/03/2025 06:59

Porcuine20 · 13/03/2025 21:27

This might be a cynical view, but fewer ‘greater depth’ grades seem to be given in year 3 and 4 than in year 5 and 6, at least in my kids’ primary school, for the purposes of good data and showing added value and progression. Both of my kids have been ‘average’ in year 3 but largely ‘greater depth’ in year 6, when I wouldn’t say their ability has changed a huge amount. I think encouraging kids to read is one of the best things you can do.

This is often repeated on MN and shows a complete lack of understanding of how internal data is used and by whom. Schools are not measured on progress between, say, Y4 and Y6. It is of no benefit to them to do this and if anything would be of disadvantage to the Y4 teacher.

surreygirl1987 · 14/03/2025 07:40

modgepodge · 14/03/2025 06:34

I have taught classes where some kids did not do as well as they could have done in their SATS because there were SEN kids in the class without adequate support. My attention went on the child who was hitting people/climbing on tables/distracting others, and the 11 year olds who couldn’t read, not on the quiet ones who had potential to reach greater depth with a bit more input.

Was it the fault of the kids with SEN? No. Did I blame them? No. Would some of the children had more personalised teaching and ended up achieving better if they hadn’t been in the class? Yes.

that’s not to say I don’t think they should be have been there. But had the child with obvious ADHD been able to see someone to be diagnosed and potentially have medication more quickly things might have been different. Had there been additional teachers/TAs available to provide targeted support to those working very behind, things might have been different.

Show quote history

But you (and the OP) seem to be determined to equate SEN with behavioural issues. You are simply proving my point. You need to acknowkdge that actually the SEN kids can be the quiet, studious ones too: they're not all clambering on tables and unable to read, as you describe. This is what I mean about changing the narrative (which you are unfortunately contributing to).

(Oh and I'm a teacher too by the way).

As it happens, my son (autistic and ADHD) is flying and is in 'greater depth' for almost everything. One of the top two in his class, and particularly exceptional in maths. It's a shame that the OP can't seem to bear to have an average daughter and is intent on pinning the blame for that elsewhere...

OliviaBonas · 14/03/2025 08:36

LadeOde · 13/03/2025 22:01

Some posters (re: 3 years old!), are unbelievably rude while making fools of themselves.

Agree! You can’t be GDS in Early Years. They’re thinking of GLD or not thinking at all…

notatinydancer · 14/03/2025 09:53

Oioisavaloy27 · 13/03/2025 20:49

She is 3 years old what is wrong with.you?

Year 3.

modgepodge · 14/03/2025 14:36

surreygirl1987 · 14/03/2025 07:40

But you (and the OP) seem to be determined to equate SEN with behavioural issues. You are simply proving my point. You need to acknowkdge that actually the SEN kids can be the quiet, studious ones too: they're not all clambering on tables and unable to read, as you describe. This is what I mean about changing the narrative (which you are unfortunately contributing to).

(Oh and I'm a teacher too by the way).

As it happens, my son (autistic and ADHD) is flying and is in 'greater depth' for almost everything. One of the top two in his class, and particularly exceptional in maths. It's a shame that the OP can't seem to bear to have an average daughter and is intent on pinning the blame for that elsewhere...

Show quote history

I didnt say SEN means badly behaved. SEN literally stands for special educational needs, ie they require something slightly different educationally, and that something will usually require some additional input/attention from teachers. of course, there are sometimes children who do just behave badly, who do not have SEN. And there are some children with a diagnosis who require nothing extra/different to any other child in the class, like your child, though in my experience these are rarer. However, on the whole, classes with lots of children with some sort of SEN are difficult to manage as a teacher, not necessarily because of behaviour, but because those children all need something different and that requires a lot of time/resources/input. And unfortunately, in the current underfunded educational system, that means the rest of the class (whatever their ability) don’t get as much attention. I don’t think that’s a controversial viewpoint and I think most teachers would say that’s their experience. Again, I am not blaming SEN kids or saying they shouldn’t be in the class.

Snorlaxo · 14/03/2025 14:42

Children in year 3 are 7 or 8 year olds. The posters who think that the post is about a 3 year old need to improve their comprehension skills.

CyrtainFlop · 14/03/2025 14:50

RandomUserName96 · 13/03/2025 21:47

I think a few posters may benefit from extra reading comprehension tbf

Maybe then they'd appreciate the difference between a Yr 3 child and a 3 yr old

Yes I wish people would read before commenting!

Original poster

MrsMrsMrs12 · 14/03/2025 17:29

Thank you everyone for all your replies. I am absolutely not blaming any cohort of children, or the teachers and am just asking what I could do out of school to help her. Her teachers have said to me that most of their time is spent with the working towards children trying to get them to ARE. I am not complaining about that. No child is “average” but if she is genuinely ARE, that is fantastic- I just want to give her every opportunity to reach her potential and in her current class, I do not think that is possible . No need to be aggressive and angry anybody - surely every parent just wants to give their child the best chance in life and I just wanted a few tips

OP posts:

Creamsnackered · 14/03/2025 17:48

modgepodge · 14/03/2025 14:36

I didnt say SEN means badly behaved. SEN literally stands for special educational needs, ie they require something slightly different educationally, and that something will usually require some additional input/attention from teachers. of course, there are sometimes children who do just behave badly, who do not have SEN. And there are some children with a diagnosis who require nothing extra/different to any other child in the class, like your child, though in my experience these are rarer. However, on the whole, classes with lots of children with some sort of SEN are difficult to manage as a teacher, not necessarily because of behaviour, but because those children all need something different and that requires a lot of time/resources/input. And unfortunately, in the current underfunded educational system, that means the rest of the class (whatever their ability) don’t get as much attention. I don’t think that’s a controversial viewpoint and I think most teachers would say that’s their experience. Again, I am not blaming SEN kids or saying they shouldn’t be in the class.

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And if they are on the SEND register that should only be because they need something 'additional to or different from' the universal provision (per the Code of Practice 2015). That takes resources, most often (not always) through time. It is simply illogical to suggest otherwise, in the same way a child in a class of 40 will get less resources (likely time) than a child in a class of 20 because it is being stretched between double the number of children. As ever, it comes down to funding.