To think what used to be called 'the permissive society' has harmed both women and men?

[JFDIYOLO]

In the 60s the Pill brought in freedom for women to have sex without the spectre of pregnancy and being (horrors) an unmarried mother. For those with children to set limits.

Fantastic. For ... Well, for who?

Because it also removed the big gift of being able to say No. Because they didn't want to, didn't like/fancy/want him, didn't feel ready, weren't old enough, didn't want to risk STD etc etc, but could feel safer by simply saying they couldn't risk pregnancy.

And that could all be bulldozed with 'go on the pill then we can have all the sex, you won't get pregnant and I don't have to use a condom!'

Is it a long shot, a false conclusion - or has that revolution 60 or so years ago contributed to some of the problems we have now? Where their grandchildren, boys and girls, are now exposed to sights and influences and attitudes that would have been incredible then?

Women enjoy sex too OP. You're acting like women were all coerced into sex because of the pill and it took away their agency.

Women also want to have sex outside marriage and there's great freedom in being able to control your fertility.

I said no for lots of reasons - none of them were 'I might get pregnant'.

No. I think continued male entitlement has caused the problems. When we didn't have the pill men coerced and pushed on the "no". Men have always been able to simply walk away, society allows them to just not pay CMS payments with no consequences while continuing to vilify single mothers for daring to have sex. Even WITH the pill we aren't supposed to have sex lest we be slut shamed and fingers wagged, men complaining about "body counts" and purity culture and all the other shit that continues. Men! Men are the problem!

No. Women’s ability to control whether they get pregnant or not - outside and inside marriage - has been an absolute game changer and a godsend for many.

Men who are willing to coerce a woman into sex are unlikely to be put off by “but I might get pregnant” anyway.

There are lots of things that are not great about today’s society but I certainly wouldn’t pick the pill as a first target.

I think men need to take responsibility for their own morality rather than expecting it to come from women.

What a truckload of twaddle, lovely.
I would love to hear how exactly the pill is obstructing you to say no.
"I don't want to have sex with this man, but because I am taking the pill I have now to give in. Damn it!"

I've never had trouble saying no, even with birth control.

Before birth control there were plenty of women who got married and then gave birth 7 months later to an 8lb preemie. The lack of birth control didn't necessarily cause women to say no.

Men! Men are the problem!

As a straight woman, couldn't agree more @TimeForTeaAndG.

The ability to take contraception if you want to as a woman isn't just about stopping pregnancy. Freedom from painful or inconvenient periods. Hormone regulation.

The type of man to invade women's boundaries and not take no for an answer are not going to be stopped by the pill.

Can't see how men have been harmed in your post @JFDIYOLO

Because it also removed the big gift of being able to say No

... no it didn't.

I don't have sex, but I am still on the pill. I don't use it to prevent pregnancy (although that is a nice side-effect). I use it so I don't nearly bleed to death every month.

The pill has more uses than just preventing pregnancies when you are having unprotected intercourse. You are very, very, unreasonable.

Yep, the problem is men! Unfortunately!
I'd say the incredible positive impact that being able to not get pregnant has had on millions of women's lives vastly, vastly outweighs the fact that women can't use this as a way of keeping abusers away from them any more. The problem we have, and have always had, is entitled men who don't want to take no for an answer.

No - I don't think women or even couples being able to control fertilty is the problem. You only have to watch a few episodes of call the midwife to see the benefits.

I do wonder though if other social pressures/changes have caused problems - though which specifically not so sure on - porn avaliblity - lingering social acceptablity of men abandoning kids - low rape convictions - lack of teaching men around consent - male entitlement and girls/women not feeling empowered to say no.

Have a think about some of the countless countries across the world where women lack access to affordable, reliable, long-acting contraception. Do their birth rates seem to support the idea that women without it see it as effective justification to say no to sex? Do you think perhaps there might be something else going on?

Oh the OP started that other terrible thread about how men are genetically incapable of doing housework too.

Regressive views disguised as feminism really get my goat.

I don't think it is contraception that is the issue about the permissive society. It is men being able to walk away from their responsibilities much more easily.

We had a Prime Minister who could not even publicly say how many children he had and by how many mothers. No way would he have got anywhere near government in the 60s.

Absolute bollocks.

There's a really good book by Louise Perry called The Case against the Sexual Revolution that talks about the cascade of unintended consequences from uncoupling sex from the risk of reproduction for both men and women that you might like, op. I think it's quite persuasive actually.

The permissive society is not very good for women who are not into casual sex/hookups but only want sex in the context of a relationship. I have no problem with women who do enjoy casual sex, but it’s not compulsory!

Yes, women had, and have it, so much easier when safe and reliable contraception isn’t available, of course(!)

Humans have utilized contraceptive and abortive methods since time immemorial, with varying degrees of success. The development of reliable birth control did not create a need, it was a response to it.

Unreliable and unsafe methods significantly increase the risk of women facing serious injury and even death. Approximately half of all abortions worldwide are performed in countries where it is illegal, and it’s a leading cause of maternal mortality. STDs also tend to run rampant in countries where contraception isn’t easily accessible.

If you want to consider it in a modern European context then there’s Ceaușescu‘s Romania. ‘Better for women’ my ass.

I always think of that bit in the original book Call The Midwife where Jenny says that when the pill became widely available the birth rate in the district dropped to less than 10% of what it was when she worked there. Says it all about how many babies these women wanted to be churning out.

Because it also removed the big gift of being able to say No.

No it didn’t. It gave them the big gift of being able to say yes. It is a good thing for women to be able to enjoy sex on their terms and without ruining their lives.

Women on the Pill were, and are, just as able to say no as they were previously. Nobody was obliged to take it. Nobody was obliged to tell anyone if they were taking it.

When the Pill became available, it actually meant that women were finally able to say yes when they wanted to and no when they didn’t. Which is as it should be.

I’ve read that book. It’s a real eye opener.

Women who don’t want casual sex are marginalised.

I think sex has become highly commoditised and transactionary in nature, or at least it's sometimes presented that way.

I think this does both men and women a great disservice, and overall I think it's been worse for women, because they tend to be the ones (literally) left holding the baby.

I don't think it's any one thing that's caused this: the Pill is possibly one factor but I'd also suggest easier divorce laws, collapse of pre-marital sex taboo, the gradual pornification of everyday popular culture and of course, online porn itself.

The first three reasons I listed above are, taken individually, good things, but taken together with the last two and the entrenched misogyny still in our society, and we end up where we are, with online porn confusing young people's minds as to what sex is, and fewer young people having sexual exploration/intimacy, because porn presents sex as this ridiculous gymnastic endurance activity which may or even should involve anal, BDSM, pissing etc etc.

No wonder young people see sex as transactional at best and scary at worst. And this then alienates the two sexes from each other and we end up with unforeseen consequences such as Andrew Tate and incels.

Have you read Louise Perry’s book, op?