To ask how to cope with parents who have never accepted me as a separate being?

[noraheggerty]

I'm late 40s. My parents are very eccentric people, and brought me up in an odd way. I was socially isolated except for school, and was not allowed any TV or proper toys (I played with dominos and chess pieces for hours on end) or any junk food etc. I was an only child so no relief from the loneliness. No help when I was struggling socially, just told I should be happy because I'm different (i.e. better) and that the reason for my unhappiness was "in me".

They now live abroad and I see them twice a year for a week or two.

They are not diagnosed with anything (that kind of thing just isn't on their radar) but I am convinced my dad has ASD and my mum probably also has that as well as anxiety/OCD. And both have massive trauma.

They both had extremely controlling parents themselves. My dad's parents (who had their own terrible trauma -- they were refugees) treated him badly and eventually disowned him for leaving their religion. He hates them but doesn't see the irony in his own behaviour.

My mum was raped as a young teen, and I think she completely lost confidence in herself and it never returned. The world is a terrifying place for her. She had other controlling partners before my dad. She has pretty much fallen out with her own family due to religious and political differences. Irony again.

My dad has very little theory of mind and used to constantly deny both my and my mother's reality, experiences, feelings etc as the only ones that exist for him are his own. He still does this to my mum. With me, these days we just barely talk, beyond the shallowest things, unless it's him just monologuing about his special interests. It's sad we have so little connection but at least it avoids having too many reality-denying opportunities.

My mum coddled and smothered me and was highly anxious & terrified of me showing any negative emotion so I learnt to hide it and deny it even to myself. Meanwhile my dad would fly into a rage if I didn't agree with him or kept on asserting my own reality. All I wanted was for him to see me, to hear me, to believe that I existed as a separate being. He'd rant and rave and then send me to my room still unheard & utterly frustrated, and I'd scream for my mum because it felt so unfair but of course she wouldn't dream of "defying" him to come to me.

(At that time she didn't even have her own bank card & he doled out "spending money" to her each month - even when she was the sole earner!!)

Between the two of them the effect was that it took till my late 30s to actually start recognising my own feelings, desires etc and start being able to speak my truth to anyone. I have binge eating disorder and have used drugs and alcohol at various times to cope with my "forbidden" negative emotions. Plus depression and emotional fatigue from turning anger etc in on myself.

I hate spending time with them because it's so triggering. But I don't want to go NC because I hold a lot of affection for them and I don't blame them for the way they are. They are like that because of their trauma and possibly their brain wiring. I don't hate them. In fact I think they are kind-hearted, generous people doing their best. They care a lot for their friends, and for me, but when it comes to me the caring is expressed in a way that I can't really cope with.

They still micromanage me when I am there. They will tell me to put on my coat and carry water, change for the bus etc. They will involve themselves in everything I try to do and tell me how to do it. If I say "I'm going to the shop, would you like anything?" My dad will say "What are you buying? You don't really need that do you? Let me go and get it for you, you might not understand the language" I say "I like to try and speak it" etc and then I'm defending myself feeling like I have to argue with him just to leave the damn flat!!

When I visited them last year, my mum was acting like this when her friend was over and I said "You know, Mum, I'm just gonna go do my thing for a bit" and she turned to her friend and said "She likes to be independent!"

I was 46!!

My dad will tell me again and again what he thinks I should do, long after I have said "thank you for the advice but I'm going to do something different". On one visit I complained to my mum about this, saying how my dad was getting on my nerves. Later I overheard her telling my dad what I'd said and I heard him reply "I don't mind if she finds it annoying. If she doesn't listen the first time I'll just keep telling her".

I have tried to assert my boundaries various times but it always ends in frustration and conflict.

If they lived nearby and I could see them for a few hours at a time I could take it, but they are so far away it has to be at least a week at a time.

Wise women of Mumsnet, do you have any tips on coping with this without getting triggered?

Don't say have therapy. I'm visiting them next week. There isn't time!

That sounds tough. From the way you wrote so eloquently, I presumed that you’d already had therapy as you seem to have clarity about the situation.

I presume they’re in their late 70s, so at their age, they aren’t going to change, and as you don’t want to stop seeing them, I think all you can do is try to change your response by letting the things they say kind of flow over and around you, like a rock in a stream.

you know how you feel, they can’t (not won’t, can’t) alter their behaviour at this late stage in their lives so all you can do, as you love them, is accept them as they are and not struggle against it.

The old trope that you can only change your own reactions is true. So you can identify many areas that are triggering for you. The examples you give are pretty common in parents of adults- I am unable to see my DC off without saying, ‘drive safely’ or ‘have you got your keys?’ I don’t think this annoys them too much.

However I am extremely sensitive to my own mother’s comments which tend towards extreme negativity. I have learned to not challenge her. If she says, oh we won’t go out it’s bound to rain I’ll reply that I think I will take a chance, does she want to come or will she stay at home? She will come.

In short a lot of deep breathing, a lot of bland responses and try and find some common ground where you can actually engage properly.

Good luck.

I do think therapy would be helpful. Even it's 'too late' for the upcoming visit, it is likely to give you the tools to make later visits easier to manage. It'll also help you with your own thoughts and feelings re your childhood and in the longer term.

Thank you so much for reading such a long post! You are right, I need to let go & accept. They are definitely not going to change. It's very hard to let go of though.

@Mumblechum0 I have had some therapy over the years, I just think I might need more! And have read a lot of psychology books.

@MatildaTheCat I agree some of it is normal, just triggering to me because of the context of the past. But I do think some of it is really not normal, e.g. my dad saying that he will keep telling me what to do until I do it. But I agree what matters is not any particular behaviour but whether I'm triggered by it.

Can you not stay with them in their home? Do you have the funds for a hotel or Airbnb? That way you can remove yourself when it's too much

But for the micromanaging, I'd stick a cheery smile on my face and say things like "that's great advice, but don't forget, I like to be independent" and then skip out the room singing something from the sound of music. I think you're doing very well to see their behaviour towards you as a product of their own traumas. Can you stretch that thought to treating them as if they're very ill as a result. They lack the ability to interact with you in a normal way, it's not their fault, but it is their deficiency. Would that help make their comments less relivent and annoying?

Hotel or Airbnb

Limit the time you spend with them.

You aren’t going to change them, you know you can’t trust your mum to keep schtum. Just visit, agree with them, keep the peace, ahh and uhhm and get out! It’s the only way, keep subject matters neutral, indulge them, you clearly care for them. They’ll probably get worse as they get older. It is, what it is. Just look after yourself.

'They are definitely not going to change. It's very hard to let go of though.'

It most certainly is! The theory makes sense, but it really does take time to fully accept that your parents won't change and this is as good as it's going to get. It's weird and unsettling and very painful

I can relate to so much of your post. My dad monologues endlessly about himself, my mother doesn't really trust anyone and is like a child in many ways. Neither of them can accept me as the adult I am, they still need me to be a child / young person who they can control. I also live in a different country to them so can relate to not just being able to pop in for coffee or whatever.

My advice would be to take seriously the impact that their behaviour had on you. No, they won't change, but that doesn't mean you have to just go along with it. I see visiting my family as entering a hostile environment - you need to prepare, be clear about what you're facing, take breaks where you can, and keep your visit short. I did 5 days last time and it was just too long. And give yourself some recovery time afterwards

I think more therapy in the medium term sounds like a great idea. Good luck, and take care of yourself. It's tough going x

'I hate spending time with them because it's so triggering. But I don't want to go NC because I hold a lot of affection for them and I don't blame them for the way they are. They are like that because of their trauma and possibly their brain wiring. I don't hate them. In fact I think they are kind-hearted, generous people doing their best. They care a lot for their friends, and for me, but when it comes to me the caring is expressed in a way that I can't really cope with.'

I think you really summarised your feelings here OP, and perhaps these can inform your next steps. How would it feel for you to make some changes - choose a separate accomodation when visiting, shorter stays, taking more breaks when visiting, neutral topics of conversations? Your dad is clearly saying he does not care if you find his behaviour annoying, and is not planning to change his?

Visits will still be difficult, but setting up some boundaries would give you space to recover.

I'm sure it's been said but can you stay elsewhere when visiting?

Re your dad I think you could try being more explicit and tackling him head on. Ask him how old he thinks you are, what was he doing at 46.
If someone said they would keep repeating how would he feel. And so on.

I had similar, though to a far lesser extent, with my mum. She was hugely emotionally reliant on me, strongly enmeshed, and anything I thought or did that differed to her was just me wanting to be deliberately provocative, it wasnt what I really thought (because me differing to her was simply impossible). I live far away and saw her rarely.

One thing that got me through was playing bingo. I knew what topics were likely to appear and would award myself points whenever they did. Thus, instead of being annoyed I almost looked forward to the comments. And it allowed me a kind of detachment from the situation.

Good luck, and keep posting here if you need support.

Look at transactional analysis, they seem to communicate parent to child. They will struggle with any other type of communication from you.

What would happen if you gave them an opportunity to offer advice, in a controlled way? Instead of ''I'm going to the shop, would you like anything' how would they react if you asked 'What's the best shop for me to go to if I wanted to buy X?'

You speak about your parents with such understanding and compassion, you deserve a better relationship with them. If only we could wave a magic wand and fix things!

Just wanted to say I feel for you, and I could have written much of this myself - odd parents, only child, "it's good to be different," both likely ASD and mum with severe anxiety, VERY enmeshed and don't see me as an independent adult...

I haven't really figured it out either tbh so will be watching the thread closely. It sounds like you are dealing with at least one parent who is from a non-Western cultural background. Both of my parents emigrated in their mid-20s and I've found reading up about culturally sensitive therapy very useful. This approach takes into account that things like setting boundaries or going NC doesn't really "work" the same way in some cultural settings. And that we can hold a lot of affection for parents who are "difficult" because we understand they faced traumas and grew up with a completely different set of rules and expectations than many western parents. Not sure if this applies to you but thought I'd mention it.

I also struggle with my relationship with my mum (and my dad too, but he passed away). I am 39 and the way my mum shows love is very 'transactional' - "give me all your white washing" rather than ever really asking me about my life or how I feel about things (I sometimes think she know absolutely nothing about me). Like you, I know she's like this because of her childhood, but I still find this hard to accept. I also don't think she has ever accepted that I am an adult, and I find being treated like a child really infuriating (e.g. "have you brushed your hair").

It got worse for me when I had my own children because I don't like the way I am when I am around her - I don't like them to see me being snappy and mean in response to her. She's absolutely rubbish with the kids and only interacts with them through buying them things, which I hate too.

I have put some boundaries in place, e.g. I always stay nearby when I go and visit her, then I can manage my time the way I want to. This helped for a while but I'm feeling more and more distanced from her. I also wouldn't want to go NC but sometimes get really fed up with our relationship - I get very little from it.

Would suggest having clear boundaries for yourself about the things that bother you the most (things that you can change). Keep trips short. And as my therapist said to me, don't worry if you revert to a particular behaviour yourself when you're around them - because it's only natural when we are around people we've known since childhood.Beits very hard to change old, ingrained patterns. Be kind to the inner child but remember you're not a child any more and relish being able to say goodbye! X

You tube has a lot on controlling or narcissistic parents. I’ve found it helpful in that by understanding why they behave like that, I realise it’s not about me. I don’t think you can change them. But you can take a step back and feel less affected by it I think.

agree that (long term) more therapy might be beneficial, although tbh I'm amazed at how understanding and 'sorted' you come across given your upbringing.

Agree with other posters, probably the best thing you can do is try to step back from the situation as much as possible, and not take any of it personally. If possible can you see any humour in any of it? Not exactly the same but I've seen on here advice for dealing with snipy MILs etc to play 'bingo' whenever they do/say something rude or weird. Then if your dad says something like 'Don't forget to go to the toilet before you go out,' you can have a little smile to yourself and mentally tick another one off.

Would writing at the end of each day help to 'decompress?' Texting a trusted friend to have a moan, or even just ranting on here would be fine!

Can you invent a friend who lives/is on holiday nearby and whom you can 'meet up with' just to get out of the house when you need a break? Or (if they still don't have internet) pretend you need to do something urgently for work and go to a cafe or something for a few hours.

Plan something nice for yourself to look forward to when you get home as a reward!

OP even though I was allowed

TV
Junk food
Toys

i can so relate to your experience- I’m an only child too

my were the same - unreasonable and emotionally immature

my mother was an alcoholic who had meltdowns and tantrums when she couldn’t get her own way

i know what to mean about not letting you be your own person etc -

when I was a young adult I told my mom that I hadn’t liked the school I went to - she was so cross and disapproving-

“I chose that school for you!”

I feel a more mature parent would understand a child’s point of view more and that everyone’s entitled to their own opinions

Oh crikey yes bingo is the way. Also not getting emotionally involved in the conversation, observing their behaviour like a social experiment, treating their comments like you would if they were made by an older man/woman on the bus - you’d nod and smile perhaps but wouldn’t be emotionally invested in the conversation or get irritated by it.

we saw my mum at weekend and we had our first bingo square ticked off within ooh four seconds of seeing her.

Thank you everyone, there's some really good advice here.

The bingo thing sounds great, I will certainly do that. I can see how it would provide detachment & humour. Thank you!

Lots of pp are saying to stay elsewhere. I think that's a good idea too. My last therapist (I've had a few) said the same but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It's because of the enmeshment. I'm scared of telling my mum that I want to stay elsewhere in case she feels terrible about her little daughter not wanting to stay in her house and does it mean I don't love her etc.

It's already bad enough with the length of time - I told her I might come for two weeks and she wasn't happy & said it was too short. Too short! Christ!

And it would be hard to explain why I want to, because she doesn't have the emotional maturity to understand the reasons. I will consider it though. Perhaps it's time to put my own needs ahead of her feelings in this regard.

The times it's worked better is when I've gone with another person - my partner came with me once, and my aunt. I'm trying to get my partner to come this time (haven't booked the trip yet because I'm waiting on some medical results so there's still time to persuade him). Having someone else there makes such a massive difference because they aren't just focused on me.

@pescar that seems very similar indeed. It's good to hear from someone with similar experience but also I really feel for you. And congrats on becoming a functioning adult given that start in life.

@RainbowSlimeLab "anything I thought or did that differed to her was just me wanting to be deliberately provocative, it wasnt what I really thought (because me differing to her was simply impossible)" - yes absolutely, this describes it perfectly. I'm sorry you've been through this too.

@MarioJumbo you have my sympathy! I hated school too and begged to move schools, I wanted to go to a grammar school but my dad decided I wouldn't like the travelling (we didn't have a car... of course 🙄). No matter that I pleaded and begged saying I would be more than happy to spend time on buses if it meant a more interesting school & people I'd have more in common with. But no. He decided what I liked & disliked & that was it!

Later in life I told him, "I would have loved to go to that grammar school". He said "No you wouldn't, you wouldn't have been happy anywhere". Thanks dad, love you too!!

@noraheggerty

omg !! My mum was so like this !!

not with a grammar school though - but j wanted to go to a more local school !!

Just seconding lots of the advice you’ve been given (and so sorrry to hear so many have been through similar). The idea of making it a game with yourself is really good. Also - maybe keep an MN thread going to discuss as you go?

You sound a very intelligent, thoughtful, kind person. I hope the trip goes well x

'And it would be hard to explain why I want to, because she doesn't have the emotional maturity to understand the reasons. I will consider it though. Perhaps it's time to put my own needs ahead of her feelings in this regard.'

I absolutely hear you, especially about the lack of emotional maturity. Would it help to think that there is no way to ever be 'good enough' or to 'get things right' with your parents? Of course that's a really painful thing, but it can mean that you stop trying to please them, because it can't be done, and you put your own needs first instead.

Would it be possible to decide not to explain why you want to stay elsewhere, but to say something vague if challenged like 'it just works better for me'? I know this stuff is really difficult, but my therapist once said to me 'you don't have to do what they expect you to do' and I found it very liberating

P.S. when I said I thought I'd have more in common with people at grammar school please don't think I'm being snobby! My parents were both teachers & they taught me to read very early & that kind of thing and I really enjoyed academic work so I figured there'd be more people like that at grammar.

Which of course makes it exceptionally weird that my dad didn't want me to go since he brought me up like that, but hey ho, he's a weird guy!

I agree that further therapy would be useful. I also think you need to start discussing with a therapist what will happen if/when your parents become more frail/unwell and need more care and what will happen when one of them dies.

You are very kind and understanding about your parents' behaviour and you make many more allowances than most people would. You have been able to build a life away from your parents' influence and constant interfering, managing them really well without upsetting or offending them too much. However, some planning for the future will be helpful as I imagine that they will have some very high expectations of you in relation to their future care needs.