If you rely on state support , you should have a great quality of life, not the breadline

[confidenceboost]

Aibu? Can we have a healthy chat on this one:

I will set my position out so nobody can say I've drip fed. I would say I have quite socialist mindset to be honest although I have grown up very privileged due to my parents hard work
I am from the uk but moved around as a child coming back to England age 18 for uni

I have been always lucky enough not to need help from the government. I think some people probably do claim help and don't need it but mostly I would say the cases are very genuine

Here's where I don't know if I am different

I think you should be given a high , highest quality of life by the govt if you genuinely for whatever reason need it.
Why should you live on the breadline?
Why should you turn down your heating?
Why should you not get treatment or help that would improve your life ?

Is it degrading to give state benefit as a breadline type lifestyle? I say yes

I think I am not being unreasonable saying that benefits and state support should be increased as it is unfair to resign people to a poor quality of life due to them needing help?

Thank you

Working should always give you a better quality of life than not working. There has to be an incentive for giving up your free time to work, even at minimum wage rates.

The only exception being genuine disabilities where there should be higher benefits to cover the extra costs you incur because of the disability (if any), and a level of "compensation" for what you could have been earning were you not disabled - maybe more akin with average/median earnings, but average/median earnings level has to be the maximum of any and all benefits, including rent allowances, free prescriptions, council tax discounts, regardless of numbers of dependants etc. No one living on benefits should receive more benefits (in total) than the average full time worker (i.e. median/average wages).

If people (who aren't genuinely disabled) don't want to work, then they should have nothing more than a very basic subsistence level standard of living.

Of course, to get there, we need to radically rethink the tax and benefits systems so that working ALWAYS pays, whether moving from unemployment to employment or moving from part time work to full time work, or taking an extra shift, taking a promotion etc. We need to get rid of the tax trips, cliff edges, etc., where you can actually be worse off by working or working a bit more, due to the combined loss of benefits and increase in tax/NIC/student loan repayments, etc.

I'd argue strongly for a maximum "loss" of 50% deductions at ALL income levels, so that doing an extra shift, taking a promotion, working an extra day, moving from unemployment to employment means you're GUARANTEED to keep 50% of your earnings, i.e. a combination of tax/NIC/student loan repayments and loss of benefits NEVER means you're worse off by any more than 50% of your extra earnings. That way there's a massive incentive for people to work, or work more/longer/harder as they're guaranteed to see at least half their extra wages in their pockets!

We need to grow the economy to get out of the financial mess we're in and the only way to do that is to get people working, not paying them to sit on their arses, and that is true at all stages, i.e. school leavers, middle aged, early retirees etc - incentivise them all to work, whether benefit claimants or not, by guaranteeing they keep at least 50% of their wages, and we'll see productivity, service standards, etc increase which will grow the economy!

@thepariscrimefiles

Ensuring that wages are higher than most benefits is what most governments do to ensure that there is always an incentive to work rather than claim benefits.

Unfortunately, that's not the case in numerous circumstances where there's a cliff edge loss of benefits at the same time as tax/nic/student loan payments on the wage. There are even cases where people are massively worse off when they lose a benefit and/or go into a high marginal tax band. And plenty of income points where an extra, say, £100 of earnings (say an extra shift) means you end up with maybe £20 if you're lucky because of the combination of loss of benefits at the same time as tax/nic/SL on the extra wage and then you lose a tenner of that for petrol or bus fares to get to/from work for the extra day! These cliff edges and thresholds are a massive disincentive for people to work longer/harder, etc.

I hate that benefits in the UK are reserved for people with no savings. It's the biggest slap in the face for those who work and save then can't for a period of time. Unemployment benefits should not be dependent on your savings.

That said I think the general quiet perception / belief in the UK is that people are overly self-indulgent and for every benefit claimant with no other option there are 3 who are faking / exaggerating. I'll put my neck on the line and admit I think the amount of benefit fraud is severely underplayed on mumsnet. It's actually endemic.
Financially the current system is unsustainable much less improvable...

They're not. Contribution-based benefits aren't affected by savings at all. Even means-tested benefits allow claimants to have up to £6k of savings without any loss of benefits and you only lose your eligibility to means-tested benefits when your savings exceed £16k (between £6k and £16k you lose a proportionate amount of benefit to the level of savings you have on a sliding scale).

@Commonsense22

I hate that benefits in the UK are reserved for people with no savings. It's the biggest slap in the face for those who work and save then can't for a period of time. Unemployment benefits should not be dependent on your savings.

I very strongly agree. It's a massive disincentive to make your own provisions.

We saw it a lot during covid with the 3 million excluded from covid support schemes. Those with little savings or a partner who was earning were also excluded from universal credit which was claimed to be the back-stop protection for the 3 million excluded. So, if you had savings or a working partner, you were just left to fend for yourself, but if you had no savings and no working partner, the door was opened to universal credit and all that goes with it. Complete slap in the face for people who'd saved money for a rainy day, and a travesty that people were forced to be supported by a working partner despite them normally be self-supporting but prevented to work by covid rules and not supported by the govt via the covid grants.

Same with old age planning. Unless you can afford to save a lot to provide a decent private pension for yourself, it's not worth bothering at all, because you'll get pension credit instead (plus rent allowance etc if you don't own your own home and are still paying rent in retirement, on nothing but basic state pension).

Instead of forever increasing taxes on workers, we should be going the other way, incentivising people to work and provide for themselves, and get the economy moving and growing.

My Dad claims benefits due to ill health. He receives £1500 a month untaxed.
That is more than some on part time wage or full time national minimum wage and them working are paying tax.

So, your dad's too ill to work and you want him to live on less than £18k pa? And unless you tell us how that amount is made up, it's meaningless. Does he pay rent? If so, how much? Does that £1.5k pm include his housing allowance?

@AngelicKaty I don't know his out going. Although I do know it is less than the £1500 he receives a month. Pip is £737, uc £210 and lcwra £276 every 2nd Thursday.
I do know some friends that work are on less than my Dad with roughly £1200-1300 incoming a month.

Whole heartedly agree with this too
It's fucking degrading!!

Why shouldn't they have savings? Awful

Oh my. You do not know how ridiculously entitled you sound !

It's the largest welfare benefit in the UK, it constitutes the biggest single item of welfare spending. Those who work pay into it and are entitled to draw it when they're no longer able to work - and that's a universal entitlement, even if they have alternative income sources. It's not means tested.

I did this and it broke me and actually caused such a severe flare up of my health I've ended up bed wridden
I feel used, taken advantage of and defeated
My husband will work to fill the gaps and yes I am his biggest expense and the love of his life I saw a few comments about my husband giving me money ... yes.... he's not an arse he's quite magic tbh.
But I agree the whole working world needs an overhaul
The trouble is smaller businesses cannot cover the costs of these living style wages. I was genuinely paid below min wage. My wages were just spent on my medication and then the kids or days out same as my husband , all money he earns I can use (be responsible ) so I have zero idea how you genuinely survive on a salary like that , it's fucking wrong

So so so so wrong especially when others have so much more then you who benefit from your low wages
I think the living wage could be forced higher and onto larger corps but then you lose the enterprise because small businesses will not work all of the time if they paid higher wages

I don't know the answer to that but I get so angry about wastage of money that someone else could have done well to use. All the wasted nhs money, money funding wars..

Because if they have savings then they can afford to support themselves… an obvious answer?

@AngelicKaty I love the stats thank you so much for sharing them

So I would then say reading that it sounds to me like a whole fucking bunch of people in England MOST tbh are on a tight elastic of working capital they run their family on, most people would therefore be considered to live in poverty, so so depressing the cost of housing is unbelievable we have a huge shortage I know as I worked with social housing and genuinely watching developers make cases to not contribute and councils wasting s106 contributions , I just wish people were more acfountable within government

Do you read the same into those stats as me? Basically most households?

Sorry not sure what point you’re making to me? I haven’t said a word about the state pension, of course it’s absolutely an entitlement for everybody that has paid in over the years (like me). I know I exactly what it is and about it not being mean tested thanks. Don’t know why you would think I need educating about it.

I think she is !!!

But so what? Your dad can't work. Your friends have the options to get better paid jobs and/or increase their hours to increase their income - your dad doesn't have this option (given that he's in receipt of £737pm PIP he must be on the higher rate for Daily Living and Mobility, which suggests he's rather poorly and/or disabled).
It's really scraping the bottom of the barrel when people make comparisons like this and instead of complaining about employers paying low wages and having their wage bills subsidised by the state (40% of people claiming UC are also working) they complain about very sick or disabled people getting income-replacement benefits. Talk about punching down. 🙄

Life isn't fair, and we can't have everything we want. That's what it all boils down to, I'm afraid. There isn't unlimited funding, but there's a bottomless pit of need (or want). Can you honestly blame people for not wanting to pay still more to support others, especially when the government mismanages what they already take?

This.

Hi all to clear up

I haven't claimed ESA I am not eligible and I got the wrong information or misunderstood

And no I don't expect the tax payer (me!) to find that lifestyle if I was feckless but if I was unable to work , for a legitimate reason then yes I believe that anyone not just me, would be entitled to have savings, go on holiday if they wanted to, heat their home, pay for the right help.

I don't know about most people but here where I live it's around 1100pcm for a 1 bed flat

So , I know most cannot afford incl when they work

As you can see through my posts and it says that my husband can make it up when he gets back into a rhythm and also that my family always do always have picked up the bill

If I relied on benefits this lifestyle is impossible however it's not actually outrageous it's medication, kids, food and mortgage and a car lease , van lease , businesses over heads and then you know I don't go to work every day to never enjoy myself and to be honest if you cant work I don't believe you shouldn't be able to enjoy yourself

I want to clarify all of that as it seems that people think because I asked about a holiday I'm somehow not a good human

I asked, didn't go and couldn't go , I need an urgent operation and genuinely I think whether I have a holiday or not is kind of irrelevant as I was asking about state benefits for people reliant

Of course it got me thinking when I have been in this position because I have never in my life been so stressed about money as when my husband couldn't work, as he had to look after me
We don't have a family to catch us here so it's hard for him with three children and a disabled wife , I have been in this position before but I got back on my feet through serious investment in my health and his never ending love and patience . Most people don't have that privilege and why the hell shouldnt they have good healthy food a break with their family and savings for an emergency , just because at that moment in time they can't work

Wild

No, not most, because the median UK wage (around £37k) is well above the poverty thresholds (although that's before housing costs are considered). In 2022/23, 21% of the UK population (14.3m people) were living in relative poverty after housing costs (this is equivalent to around 2 in 10 adults and 3 in 10 children). Of course, what these statistics don't tell us is how many people are living just above the poverty thresholds. I think we can certainly why a lot of people are struggling financially though.

I'm a bit of a geek so the stats thing I like it

Yes median but fuck I want to know the modal salary here where I live because I can assure you I was writing white label reports on social housing and local government and negotiating on deals for 15mil yet my boss some how paid me below min wage with lies about bonuses and commissions, I was on 22k pushed him to 24 and he was horrid about it

The salary I was offered was 32k in another role but that still is not the median that you refer to. Do you see how hard it is for people I just feel despair for them as there's high earners who throw this severely

@confidenceboost The average salary in Switzerland in 2024 was around 6,665 CHF gross pm. (I think you mentioned you live in Switzerland?)

So why did millions of people who had savings get furlough during Covid? Why do pensioners with lots of savings or other income get state pension?

No one had "paid in". NIC is just another tax. It's not a savings scheme nor an insurance scheme.