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Original poster

To claim overtime as my new boss now wants me to "make up" some lost time.

54 replies

Prevalence · 06/03/2025 09:12

I've worked at company for around 9 years. No issues, work done etc on a salary.
New boss arrived in January. A couple of weeks ago, I said I'll be in late because of dentist at 9, so will be in around 9:45. Just a heads up.
He says "that's fine. When will you make that time back up?
Me: "what do you mean?"
Boss: " the 45 minutes. When will you make that up?"
Me: "errr... I won't?"
Boss: "you have to. All time off needs to be made up"
Me: right, in that case then, all extra hours need to be time off in lieu of overtime then?
Boss: sounds fair.
Me: ok, when did this new policy start please?
Boss: Jan 1.
Me: ok. I'll submit my overtime then, I'll make up the 45 minutes when it's paid.
Boss: sure thing

Got him to email to confirm.

As soon as it came in I submitted 46 hours overtime, to be paid at x1.5 🤣🤣

He blew a gasket, complaining it would come from his budget etc I said "but that's the policy. Feel free to deduct 45 minutes,and then I won't make up the time.

I will now be working 9-5, no overtime, nothing!

OP posts:
RedPony1 · 06/03/2025 11:36

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 11:09

Forgive me, I still don't quite understand. I'm a teacher so have always worked extra hours here and there as needed, with no opportunity to claim for overtime. The majority of teachers do this by choice and/or necessity.

Are you saying that in business, you can just choose to work longer hours, without agreeing it beforehand, and then hit your manager with the bill? So if someone's a bit short on money one month, they can just unilaterally decide to work more hours an get paid for it?

Maybe I'm not making myself clear. I absolutely understand that people often "stay a bit later, start lunch late etc." because work needs to be done, but if they want to be paid for it, I would have thought that they would need to agree with management beforehand. E.g., "There's a real backlog of work atm and I can do a few extra hours next week on this, is it ok to claim this as overtime?". How on earth does management budget otherwise?

Show quote history

You're missing the point a little. She never expected to be paid overtime, just the flexibility of not having to "pay back" appointments because she's already worked extra before to get the job done.

TOIL is common, i've used it everywhere i've worked

roses2 · 06/03/2025 11:52

Why would you stop working overtime that you were doing anyhow when he has confirmed he will pay you more!!

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 12:02

RedPony1 · 06/03/2025 11:36

You're missing the point a little. She never expected to be paid overtime, just the flexibility of not having to "pay back" appointments because she's already worked extra before to get the job done.

TOIL is common, i've used it everywhere i've worked

Show quote history

I don't think I am missing the point. I completely understand that OP was happily working extra hours and not expecting to be paid overtime because they liked the flexibility of TOIL. That all sounds great to me and a fab way of working. I completely agree that this benefits both employer and employees, and is usual in many places of employment.

What I'm questioning is the system for overtime. Is it regular practise that an employee can request payment for overtime when it hasn't been agreed in advance? My DP works in a regular PAYE role and he occasionally has to work evenings/weekends. When this happens, it's agreed that project X needs to be sorted ASAP so Y hours of overtime are agreed. DP works the extra hours and then claims for them. What he can't do is just decide he'll do some extra hours one month, and send in the bill afterwards.

I've asked the OP to clarify, but I don't think they understand what I'm asking.

wherearemypastnames · 06/03/2025 12:06

We always had a give and take arrangement - it usually worked out in the companies favor - as indeed it would have done in OPs case 46 hrs vs 45 mins

Yes not all jobs can be like that but it isn't a race to the bottom

Teaching is a very bad example because if you actually look at the hours worked over a year it often gives a very different picture to the hours worked in a week in term time - worked it out with one teacher who was working all hours and really stressed and giving me a lot of earache - over the year however she worked less hours than me because of the longer holidays

DaringlyDizzy · 06/03/2025 12:28

Well done!! It goes both ways.

Quinlan · 06/03/2025 12:48

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 12:02

I don't think I am missing the point. I completely understand that OP was happily working extra hours and not expecting to be paid overtime because they liked the flexibility of TOIL. That all sounds great to me and a fab way of working. I completely agree that this benefits both employer and employees, and is usual in many places of employment.

What I'm questioning is the system for overtime. Is it regular practise that an employee can request payment for overtime when it hasn't been agreed in advance? My DP works in a regular PAYE role and he occasionally has to work evenings/weekends. When this happens, it's agreed that project X needs to be sorted ASAP so Y hours of overtime are agreed. DP works the extra hours and then claims for them. What he can't do is just decide he'll do some extra hours one month, and send in the bill afterwards.

I've asked the OP to clarify, but I don't think they understand what I'm asking.

Show quote history

It really depends on the employer. Some places know that people will need to work overtime regularly by an hour or two every few days or whatever, and they just put it on the time sheet and it gets paid without having to arrange it beforehand. In other places, overtime just be approved beforehand. It totally depends on the way the employer wants to deal with it and how often they expect overtime to be needed.

OP’s employer didn’t pay overtime, but clearly expected people to work extra when needed in exchange for having flexibility around time off when needed. So, no need for any approval. This new manager has decided to change it; no flexibility. Instead, he had decided to pay overtime for extra and expects you to make up anytime lost. He made the decision to back date this rule to January first, with no caveat that any overtime from the point had to be pre-approved meaning the OP can put in the extra hours worked and needs to be paid for it.
He can now fix his error by making a caveat that overtime, from now on, will only be paid if it is pre-approved. He made the policy so he needs to word it clearly and outline the new rules. If the company are happy to just pay whatever is needed then he won’t have to worry about pre-approving everything but since it sounds like he is given a budget, then he will have to so he needs to sort out the policy wording pretty quickly. It’s his own fault for leaving it ambiguous that he has been hit with an unapproved bill; he has changed the rules from flexible to everything being documented and paid or hours made up.

Fupoffyagrasshole · 06/03/2025 12:50

Yea op good for you.

I’ve not don’t this asking for money but I’ve changed to working only contracted hours when something like this came up in previous jobs - and took emails off phone etc and then when stuff wasn’t all being some as quick or efficiently I said well I used to work late when needed - but I won’t anymore due to it being made clear I have to make time up when I’m at appointments etc - if that’s the case I won’t be doing any free extra time anymore

fuck them

Nottsandcrosses · 06/03/2025 12:54

Anyone that undervalues themselves so much that they are willing to work more hours than paid for are being taken advantage of.

Your skill, time and work are valuable, start treating it as such.

mrsm43s · 06/03/2025 13:03

I imagine the policy will simply be changed to one where all overtime needs to be agreed in advance in order for it to be paid (that's standard any where I've ever worked). Odd that wasn't included in the policy - but an oversight easily rectified.

I don't think this is the win you think it is. I suspect you've marked your card now and will be seen as a trouble maker. I'd be watching my back and brushing up my CV if I was you.

DoYouReally · 06/03/2025 13:13

Some people have to learn things the hard way! You get what you give.

Fair play, some people have to be shown the downside of their stupidity.

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 13:17

Quinlan · 06/03/2025 12:48

It really depends on the employer. Some places know that people will need to work overtime regularly by an hour or two every few days or whatever, and they just put it on the time sheet and it gets paid without having to arrange it beforehand. In other places, overtime just be approved beforehand. It totally depends on the way the employer wants to deal with it and how often they expect overtime to be needed.

OP’s employer didn’t pay overtime, but clearly expected people to work extra when needed in exchange for having flexibility around time off when needed. So, no need for any approval. This new manager has decided to change it; no flexibility. Instead, he had decided to pay overtime for extra and expects you to make up anytime lost. He made the decision to back date this rule to January first, with no caveat that any overtime from the point had to be pre-approved meaning the OP can put in the extra hours worked and needs to be paid for it.
He can now fix his error by making a caveat that overtime, from now on, will only be paid if it is pre-approved. He made the policy so he needs to word it clearly and outline the new rules. If the company are happy to just pay whatever is needed then he won’t have to worry about pre-approving everything but since it sounds like he is given a budget, then he will have to so he needs to sort out the policy wording pretty quickly. It’s his own fault for leaving it ambiguous that he has been hit with an unapproved bill; he has changed the rules from flexible to everything being documented and paid or hours made up.

Show quote history

Thank you for this - it's the most reasonable explanation of the situation, and I'll assume this was how it all panned out for OP. Sounds like bad management on many levels. Primarily there should have been a formal communication about the rule change at the outset, then this could all have been avoided.

ExtraOnions · 06/03/2025 14:02

Overtime shouod have been pre-agreed before working it. If you have no formal agreement I doubt you have any grounds to try to claim it.

As for being 45 minutes late, if your working hours are stipuled in your contact, then you need to make any time up.

What does your contract say ? If there is no agreed overtime in there, and you didn’t have anything agreee before you did the overtime, it can’t claim it.

Regardless of the moral issue.

TunnocksOrDeath · 06/03/2025 14:19

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 11:23

Yes, I understand the doing extra hours from time to time because there's maybe a backlog and it just needs to be done. I do this all the time as a teacher, although in my case I very rarely get the time back quid pro quo. I also understand that this can be beneficial to the employee in terms of promotions and bonuses etc. What I don't understand is how an employee can choose to work extra hours without agreeing beforehand with management that they will get paid overtime for it. In your example of working weekends on a project, surely it's agreed beforehand that they'll get the time off in lieu? How does budgeting work if an employee just says "By the way, I worked 20 extra hours last month and here's the bill".

Show quote history

In my line of work overtime is unpaid, and days off in lieu are one day off for every weekend day worked, The company pays you the same salary every month regardless of what hours you work, so there's no hit to their budget. It's up to managers to keep an eye in their staff and make sure they're not either overworked or slacking.
The OP's case is unusual, in that her numpty manager got himself talked into paying for overtime that had previously been worked for free and back-dating the change, without checking what the implications would be. It's his own silly fault.

Original poster
Prevalence · 06/03/2025 14:28

ExtraOnions · 06/03/2025 14:02

Overtime shouod have been pre-agreed before working it. If you have no formal agreement I doubt you have any grounds to try to claim it.

As for being 45 minutes late, if your working hours are stipuled in your contact, then you need to make any time up.

What does your contract say ? If there is no agreed overtime in there, and you didn’t have anything agreee before you did the overtime, it can’t claim it.

Regardless of the moral issue.

well i got paid.. soo....

OP posts:
Original poster
Prevalence · 06/03/2025 14:30

mrsm43s · 06/03/2025 13:03

I imagine the policy will simply be changed to one where all overtime needs to be agreed in advance in order for it to be paid (that's standard any where I've ever worked). Odd that wasn't included in the policy - but an oversight easily rectified.

I don't think this is the win you think it is. I suspect you've marked your card now and will be seen as a trouble maker. I'd be watching my back and brushing up my CV if I was you.

Edited

They can crack on with that, they'll get far less hours, willingness and goodwill out of their staff and a 9-5 CICO culture.

OP posts:
Original poster
Prevalence · 06/03/2025 14:31

roses2 · 06/03/2025 11:52

Why would you stop working overtime that you were doing anyhow when he has confirmed he will pay you more!!

well, I could, until he changes policy I suppose...

OP posts:
TimeForTeaAndG · 06/03/2025 14:51

I think people are missing the point a bit. It's not about whether you agree to do the overtime in advance. Or whether you get paid. It's the sudden "change of policy" being announced in response to a previously reasonable time adjustment which has led to the feeling of "well fine then, if you want me to work my hours back then I want to be compensated for the late days as per your own policy."

When my old place of work implemented a new work attire policy with zero consultation or advance warning, I went toe to toe with management on it. It was the most outdated, marginally sexist, list of rules for a non-public facing office. Like HR had just googled a policy and copy/pasted. It was emailed out to everyone "with immediate effect" while I was on annual leave, and having been there over 2 years I could push back and have employment law (and my union) on my side.

Well done OP. Sometimes you just have to not take things lying down.

JustMyView13 · 06/03/2025 14:56

@MathsMum3 the common approach is salaried roles typically have a contract clause which states that additional hours may be required from time to time and are incorporated already in the salary paid.
In hourly paid roles overtime is more common. Usually there’d be some kind of time and attendance system in place.

The interesting piece about the salaried workers doing extra hours, and probably impacts you, is the risk of non-compliance from a minimum wage perspective is huge. Many employers get caught out by this. But essentially if you divide the salary by the hours worked in that month, the hourly pay should be above the minimum wage. If someone’s working an extra hour per day, that’s 23 per month in a long month, employers need to have the headroom in the salary to accommodate it.

YYURYYUCICYYUR4ME · 06/03/2025 15:02

I got pulled up, by a so called senior manager, for leaving an hour early for essential physio treatment - NHS so I had no option where / when. So I asked how the 96 hours, from delivering evening school sessions, would be paid. I even handed over the spreadsheet. No response, so I then took time off the day after the sessions to make up the hours. Amazing how flexibility only worked one way!

treesandsun · 06/03/2025 16:01

I am of the opinion that unfortunately if you don't look after you - your employer certainly won't. My place are as tight as fuck and quibble over any claims - they do however seem to think we will do things for good will - I have explained I work for money only - I do nothing for free anymore so if you want something over and above doing then you need to pay over and above. There are still people who work there who think show willing and you will be rewarded/protected/respected - they won't.

ObliviousCoalmine · 06/03/2025 19:36

Praise be to timesheets, flexi time and TOIL.

LameBorzoi · 06/03/2025 19:47

MathsMum3 · 06/03/2025 12:02

I don't think I am missing the point. I completely understand that OP was happily working extra hours and not expecting to be paid overtime because they liked the flexibility of TOIL. That all sounds great to me and a fab way of working. I completely agree that this benefits both employer and employees, and is usual in many places of employment.

What I'm questioning is the system for overtime. Is it regular practise that an employee can request payment for overtime when it hasn't been agreed in advance? My DP works in a regular PAYE role and he occasionally has to work evenings/weekends. When this happens, it's agreed that project X needs to be sorted ASAP so Y hours of overtime are agreed. DP works the extra hours and then claims for them. What he can't do is just decide he'll do some extra hours one month, and send in the bill afterwards.

I've asked the OP to clarify, but I don't think they understand what I'm asking.

Show quote history

No, I've hadca workplace where I just submit my overtime every fortnight.

Original poster
Prevalence · 06/03/2025 20:16

Why are people so surprised that the place they work at has different rules to everyone else?

So weird that people can't imagine a world where something like rules regarding when you start is different in the company next door to them...

So odd.

OP posts:
EuclidianGeometryFan · 06/03/2025 20:41

Boss: "you have to. All time off needs to be made up"
Me: right, in that case then, all extra hours need to be time off in lieu of overtime then?
Boss: sounds fair.
Me: ok, when did this new policy start please?
Boss: Jan 1.
Me: ok. I'll submit my overtime then, I'll make up the 45 minutes when it's paid.
Boss: sure thing
Got him to email to confirm.

This conversation makes no sense - he was clearly confused.

He agreed that all extra hours would be TOIL, backdated to 1st Jan.
This would mean you then had a big load of hours 'in credit', so could take lots of time off.
But you then jumped to saying you would be submitting overtime, which is NOT what he agreed to with the "Sounds fair". He then said "sure thing", which contradicts the agreement for TOIL.
You either get TOIL or overtime - they are different things.

What exactly does the email say?

Original poster
Prevalence · 06/03/2025 20:44

EuclidianGeometryFan · 06/03/2025 20:41

Boss: "you have to. All time off needs to be made up"
Me: right, in that case then, all extra hours need to be time off in lieu of overtime then?
Boss: sounds fair.
Me: ok, when did this new policy start please?
Boss: Jan 1.
Me: ok. I'll submit my overtime then, I'll make up the 45 minutes when it's paid.
Boss: sure thing
Got him to email to confirm.

This conversation makes no sense - he was clearly confused.

He agreed that all extra hours would be TOIL, backdated to 1st Jan.
This would mean you then had a big load of hours 'in credit', so could take lots of time off.
But you then jumped to saying you would be submitting overtime, which is NOT what he agreed to with the "Sounds fair". He then said "sure thing", which contradicts the agreement for TOIL.
You either get TOIL or overtime - they are different things.

What exactly does the email say?

It wasn't a word for word transcript. It should read TOIL or OT

It said I could claim overtime instead of TOIL, as he wants bums on seats it seems.. He didn't realise just how much I had "accrued" so agreed that I could claim OT. He got the claim, got pissed off and there we are.

It's not difficult.

And now I'm just not going to bother putting in extra hours etc.

OP posts: