Shouting insults at 14 year old for saying “no?”

[PeopleNeverLearn]

Ok - maybe some might see the title as confusing for the situation I’m about to outline, but I had to choose a title, and it’s difficult to choose the most appropriate one.

Basically it seems that we all want to ensure our children are ‘safe,’ understandably- but then why on earth do some parents get abusive when kids say no to things they dislike?

I think that a HUGE amount of threads on MN involve issues surrounding people pleasing, in one way or another.

I have to ask, if all the ‘people pleasing’ threads suddenly disappeared from MN - what would be left of MN? And to be fair, I suffer from people pleasing myself so like reading these threads for tips on how to respond - so absolutely NO judgement - I’ve got people pleasing woven in to me !!!

Anyway, this is the scenario -

When I was 14 my mum had booked a holiday or was considering booking a holiday for me and her to go to America for a fortnight. I didn’t want to go and showed as much to her. She got angry and screamed at the top of her lungs -

“YOU UNGRATEFUL CAT!!!!!!”

I think my mum used the word ‘cat’ as didn’t want to obviously swear.

The reason I didn’t want to go is on the previous holiday we went on. my mum had harshly coerced me to “‘make friends” and severely scolded me for being “selfish” and liking my own company too much. This affected me so much I didnt want to be put in the same situation again.

I then immediately rolled over, and said I’d go on the holiday ‘cos I didn’t want to face my mum’s disapproval.

The holiday was shit, I had to do a lot of the Disneyworld rides on my own - I wish I hadn’t gone.

AIBU that I feel it’s important that we encourage children to say no when they don’t like something - even if it’s to us parents - otherwise how are they meant to be firm with possible predators etc in future -- in later childhood and adulthood also?

No. They’re children with irrational little brains. That is why they can’t buy alcohol or have sex or vote or smoke. They’re not adults. We are the adults. I think the world has gone mad to be honest and this kind of approach is exactly why behaviour in schools is so shocking. I’m not saying force them into doing really awful things….but a trip to Disney! Get a grip.

I wish people would stop saying trauma and abuse in every sentence too. It’s lost all meaning!

Do you struggle to move on @PeopleNeverLearn .

You have dredged up an experience from many years ago when your 'awful mum' forced you to go to DisneyWorld. What an horrendous life you had. Seriously move on. 🙄

That's a kind comment, thank you@PeopleNeverLearn - fingers crossed!

I'm sorry but I fail to grasp how this holiday traumatised you to the point of making this thread 15 years (?) later. Sure, your mum shouldn't have talked to you that way but the fact that you went on Disney rides on your own did not bring tears to my eyes. But then I used to be a social worker and I've witnessed child abuse (physical and emotional) so I have a hard time when people complain about a shitty holiday ruining their life.

I agree. I wouldn't let my 14 dictate our holiday - however I wouldn't scream at her and call her an ungrateful cat either.

Was it just you and your dm who went OP? I can see how that would've been boring but I suppose she thought she was giving you a fantastic opportunity and saw it as ungrateful? 14 is a tricky age - not really a child any more but not grown up either and some parents struggle with how to deal with it.

OP I'm wondering if something awful happened to you when you were 14 and this has meant you have put together this argument for your mother with the awful thing that happened.
I have a 14-year-old and remember being 14 and quite a lot of drama and shouting can happen. It's a tricky age to be and to parent.

Nothing awful happened to me when I was 14, though my mum and I had terrible rows. Something did bad happen to me when I was 11 and I vividly remember lots of things at that age and query the way my parents acted.

If I am right on something did happen to you at 14, I would guess if it hadn't, you wouldn't remember this as such a significant event.

Teens are often sulky and ungrateful and try to sabotage family plans to wield power, because in their underdeveloped brains they are the only people that matter. It sounds like your Mum had done a wonderful thing for you and lost her temper when you ruined it.

Most would look back as adults and cringe, not play the victim. I was abused and neglected as a child and was eventually taken into care. I never had a holiday, and I’d have given my right leg to have had a mother who cared enough about me to try to encourage me to play with other kids or frankly do anything.

The world is going mad with people considering trivial inconveniences to be childhood abuse.

Unnecessary

Out of interest at what age does this start to apply? You can’t leave a 14yo at home on their own so I think your saying that anywhere the 14yo doesn’t want to go on holiday, the family can’t go? Does that apply to a 12yo as well? What about a 7yo? My toddler regularly doesn’t want to do things that we have arranged (although he often has a great time once we are there) - am I teaching him to be a people pleaser by disregarding his objections?

Obviously it’s reasonable to take into account what is good for the family group (our days out mainly now revolve around activities the toddler will enjoy) and especially as kids get older I would assume it’s normal to chat about upcoming holidays etc. however, the link you have made between making teenagers do things they don’t want to and being people pleasers sounds like a stretch to me.

id also say that the ‘issue’ in the situation you have described if your DMs behaviour on your previous holiday, not that she called you ungrateful for objecting to the next one (imo).

Yes you’re right in that the issue was the previous holiday

I would hate for my DS to feel obliged to do anything if he really didn't want to. Sometimes we do things that aren't 'your thing' to please other people because you are being kind and want to make them happy, but that's not necessarily a bad people pleasing thing unless that person isn't grateful or takes the P. I was going to pay for me and my DS (19) to go away on holiday for a week but I offered either that or money to go away with his mates. He did think about it but I wanted him to be honest and I said I couldn't afford both and wouldn't be offended if he preferred the money but I wanted him to be happy. He is now going away with his girlfriend and I am so excited for him. Sorry your mum sounds very needy and I feel lucky that my parents aren't like that.

Thank you yes my mum’s very needy

At least your mother asked you...

I only ever had one holiday abroad with my family when I was 12, and that was only because my parents invited themselves onto a holiday with family friends (I still cringe at that memory, like a mid 20s young couple with no kids wanted a family of 5 muscling in on their holiday). My father was extremely wealthy, but hated family life so another holiday was never on the cards.

We had moved country more times than years I'd been alive by the time I was 11. Myself and my two brothers were never consulted. Any sign that we were less than thrilled was met with extreme anger...mainly from my mother, my father barely acknowledged our existence.

I do agree that the ability to say no without guilt is a valuable one. I'm 56 and still struggle with it. I'm very low contact with my mother and deliberately live on the other side of the world from her.

We are not going to create strong, confident young people if we allow children to never push their boundaries or come out of their comfort zone. We will end up with kids that are screen addicted, unemployable and unlikeable.

Can you honestly say that the teenage you said yes to a lot of things, that you brought alternative ideas and explanations or did you just kind of sulk? Saying no all the time isn't a boundary, it's fear based and limiting.

You simultaneously complain that your mum encouraged you to make friends and then complain you went on rides on your own. Can you see that your mum might have been upset at seeing her DD isolated and miserable. She didn't handle it perfectly but it could have come from a good place.

You don't say if you have DCs, but I think if you do , you'll see this interaction differently when you have teenagers.

I think at 14 it's fine to say no to the forced making of friends but not the Holiday itself. That's an adults decision. You shouldn't have been asked. We book our holidays and inform our young teens when the time is right. They don't get to kick off and say they're not coming. If I then tried to force them to play with kids on that holiday then yes absolutely they are within their rights to say no.

OP, it sounds like you are an only child and that your mum brought you up alone; maybe your dad died, maybe he left her, maybe the separation was mutual, but it very much sounds like your mum carried the bulk of parenting.

As a parent with an only child who she was raising single-handedly, probably working full time as well as cooking and cleaning as everything else that, she may have feared you were lonely, thus taking you on the first holiday which integrated you with others; you hated that.

She then may have thought "how can I make a fun holiday, where my child doesn't have to integrate with other, but will still have fun? Disney?" Then scrimped and saved the money for that, only to have you say that you didn't want to go.

I can see how she might be frustrated at that. You're looking back and wishing you were a person who could say "no", but at the time your mum saw a lonely child, who didn't integrate well with others and wanted to give you some fun.

It's possible she went about it the wrong way, but it's also possible she had your best interests at heart.

I'm not saying any of the above is definitely true, and as your mum is sadly deceased, you'll never know.

But surely you must have at least some respect for her for raising you alone? That's a tough job and if a man had raised you alone he'd be getting all the praise in the world, especially if he'd taken you to Disneyland!

Recognise that parenting teens can be frustrating at times, especially if you're doing it all alone and she was unlikely to get everything right 🤷‍♀️

Having my own DD was eye opening to how I felt about my childhood. I always felt my mum never listened to me, let me have a ‘say’, never saw me as an individual with individual needs. Looking back the only thing she would do would occasionally for me was make me egg and soldiers for breakfast as they were my favourite. She made me egg and soldiers as an adult and I remembered feeling so touched that she knew, and she went to the effort for me.

Getting with DH, him and his family would ask me for my Xmas list. I had never done an Xmas list (obviously wrote to Santa but knew I wouldn’t get anything off the list…) as I had been raised that you’re given what you’re given and you’re grateful. I never got to choose my own clothes, and best I could say was ‘no thank you’ but that would mean going without/mum going off in a huff.

When DD was 10 weeks old and crying, mum tried to stop me going to see to her as ‘you don’t want her being the boss of you’ and when I’d try to advise mum to settle her (she liked being held up, not being cradled) mum refused as you can’t let a baby rule you/she can’t get her own way. That’s when the penny dropped, all those feelings of never being listened to, having to be appreciative of whatever we’re given, wasn’t in my head. It was my mums parenting style.

I never leave my DD to cry. Why wouldn’t I listen to her.

I don’t see myself as a trauma victim but I see my childhood as the equivalent of sitting in a rainy puddle. It was uncomfortable, not abusive, not awful, just unpleasant and I don’t want my kids growing up in a similar vibe to mine. Funny enough mum wonders why we aren’t that close now.

I can remember getting really frustrated when my dd in mid-teens would say "no" to doing stuff, as this often meant all of us would miss out. I felt like I lost some autonomy and could not do what I wanted. But, I also remember being shouted at for "being so ungrateful" and now I am a people-pleaser.

Can see both sides.

Sounds like you’ve got the right attitude to your teens - I just rolled over with the forced friendships thing cos I didn’t want my mum’s disapproval - the ‘friendship’ was awful

I'm not sure if this is what you're saying but it's important to teach children to not be people pleasers. We can do this by texting them how to set boundaries and show them it's ok to set boundaries.

It doesn't mean we as parents give in to every whim of our children. Yes they can set their boundaries and so can we.

It's a commitment to constant communication, engagement, negotiation.

It's not about the holiday . If I was the mum in this situation I absolutely would try to persuade the daughter to come (she's 14, too young to be left alone at home) but I would try to be gentle about it and make it about being for the daughters benefit, I wouldn't make her feel bad for being introverted or shy. I wouldn't scream at her and make her feel afraid to set boundaries or express needs. I wouldn't shame or belittle. I would simply be like "well, you're coming, may be it won't be as bad as you think. Let's think of something to do that we can enjoy" I would also make sure down time was included as well for the daughter.

@PeopleNeverLearn has said it was a pattern for her mother to do this. I'm not saying her mum was a monster or that she needed her kids removed, but it's ok to think "this is not what I want for my daughters."

Well you've a point there. Saying no to everything isn't empowering and the idea is to create boundaries not walls. But shaming somebody out of their comfort zones and defence mechanisms isn't the way forward. Perhaps the OP felt shamed or pressured. If someone is introverted or shy or quiet, they tend not to respond so well to pressure.

Your mother sounded stressed and was desperately trying to give you a good childhood. Being a parent is so hard. I think you should forget about it tbh. I'm sure you are a perfect parent all the time. Hopefully your children will be equally understanding as you.

I have always been a great believer in allowing children to make choices. I feel that it gave them the message that they were important too. It also taught them to make decisions, something that I can struggle with.
However certain things were not a choice and going on the family holiday (when still a child) would definitely be one instance where they would not be allowed to refuse to go. One person would not have been allowed to deny the rest of us a holiday.

If she's already booked the holiday then it's too late to say no. Sometimes you also do need to just go along with things that you may not want to do because learning that we can't always get our way, to compromise, and that in life there are lots of things we have to do!(especially as an adult) that we don't want to do. That has to be balanced with the fact that you should also not always feel you should capitulate to others and that your needs and wants are important too. Learning healthy conflict reduction is helpful in learning to find this balance.

Having said all of that I don't really think the problem is this holiday. I think it's clear that you have many examples where your mum appeared to ride roughshod over your needs and wants, and didn't model health conflict resolution.

The holiday isn't a great example of your point on its own I don't think. Ideally she shouldn't have shouted, but parents are human and you can see how maybe if the holiday was already booked and you had a "backchatting" and ungrateful tone, that could lead to an overly emotional response from a disappointed and angry parent. However pushing you and getting angry and upset at you for not making friends and being yourself is much more worrying and problematic. So I suspect the holiday shouting is just the icing on the cake for how your mum made you feel which is why you feel so angry and upset as you sound in your OP.

Working through the damage that's done by parents is really hard and a really long road so be kind to yourself and good luck 💐