To think we need to prioritise defence/Ukraine spending?

[Wildflowers99]

I’ll admit I had no idea how depleted our military has become until a few weeks ago. I was absolutely staggered to read we now spend more on PIP and DLA than our entire military.

I feel like slowly all of our public spending has been funnelled into health, benefits and social care, leaving everything else in a very poor state. Any time anyone has suggested spending money on anything apart from ‘freezing pensioners, the homeless or disabled’ they get shouted down (I am disabled btw, so I do understand the need).

AIBU to think we need to urgently address our spending priorities and as a nation wake up to the fact we’ve been overspending on the above for too long?

You all completely and irrationally mis read what I said, I was agreeing with blossomtoes and saying "greedy and entitled people " take her money.

??? FFS last time I try to stick up for someone on here.

So sorry I misunderstood

Perhaps we ought to look at the reasons so many people are reliant on benefits, either to top up their income or to survive on before we decide to reduce the support they are getting?

OP, It's all very well and good to say DLA/PIP should be cut to afford more funding for defence, but this only works if it saves money, not if it simply shifts the burden to another govt funded body?

Eg: What happens if we refuse DLA/PIP to everyone in receipt of these benefits through mental health issues?
What do you see happening? Do you see these people suddenly feeling better, forcing themselves to work, queuing for the bus in the morning to take them to work?
Do you believe they are simply not pushed hard enough to be self sufficient financially and the removal of their benefits will mean they will begrudgingly go out to work? Possibly full time?
Do you believe there are any cases of mental health where you would deem them 'unemployable'?

Your posts read as though you believe people who claim DLA/PIP due to mental health issues are able to work to support themselves financially and just don't like the idea, rather than that they can't work!

Or worse still, you don't give a shit how they survive so long as they aren't costing the taxpayer any money?

What effect do you think it would have on society if we suddenly withdraw financial support from people with mental health disabilities?

Are there no workhouses??

It wasn’t clear (and still isn’t to me) how that was sticking up for me. But it’s the thought that counts so thank you.

OP does not believe people with MH issues should get money. Her opinion (on another thread), is that people "lean on their MH" too much. She also thinks that autistic people who do not have a LD should get no money too

All good questions.

The rise in claims is what, to me, throws huge doubt over the current system. I don’t think a lot of posters here have quite wrapped their heads around how fast these claims are rising - and when I state the facts, they’re not interested. They see this from purely an emotional aspect of ‘if somebody says they’re need XYZ, why would you not give it to them? Are you a bad person?’.

Claims have basically doubled in little more than 5 years. The majority of them are for MH and ND. So what was going on before this? I think there has been a rise in cases of mental illness, but not to the extent the rise suggests. There has been a sudden advent of new diagnoses and a lot of people then going on to be diagnosed with them, just around the same time PIP was introduced. I think these people are mentally unwell to some extent, I’m not saying their diagnoses are wrong, but the nature of MH makes the severity of it very very hard to determine.

As I said before, and I’m sure this will be controversial, having kids has been the hardest thing physically and mentally that I’ve ever done. It has been an absolute endurance course in physical and mental resilience, and I find it very difficult to understand how somebody too unwell to work an 8 hour admin job (for example) can have multiple babies while on disability benefits. I know several people in this position.

There seem to be a number of responses which come out whenever these types of questions are raised (mostly ‘how dare you judge’ but also variations of ‘people are unwell if they say they’re unwell, maybe their profile means they can do XYZ but not work…’) but I think these elephant-in-the-room questions need to be asked, because if we don’t use a bit of common sense here the numbers will just continue to accelerate. It isn’t mean to ask very obvious and logical questions, such as why people seem to be capable of things they enjoy and it’s mainly just work they say they can’t do.

What do I think the impact will be? Well if people are being repeatedly sectioned, they’re clearly not well enough for work. If they’ve made a serious suicide attempt, likewise. But I don’t feel we are in a position to support people not working for anxiety or depression unless there’s clear evidence of extreme need as above. I’m sure many people won’t like it, but it’s unaffordable, and even Labour (the party of benefits) are alarmed by what is happening. I can’t predict the outcome but we know the outcome of sinking everything into health and benefits - it comes back to bite us. Like it is right now - we are backed into a corner with a depleted military.

There’s only 2 directions of travel and that’s to either carry on and we eventually become a country where basically everything is run on a shoestring bar the welfare bill, or we reduce/control the welfare bill and that can’t be by continuing to pay the amount we do to the numbers who are claiming.

What are the alternatives? I would be genuinely interested to hear. I anticipate more attacks on me as a person though. I can’t think of anything else that can be cut at this point.

What happened 5 years ago??? hmmm...

I agree that simply throwing our hands up and just accepting large parts of the population will always be too ill to work isn't the solution. But neither is just cutting benefits in the belief the majority are malingerers. Burnout is quite common in nurses and teachers for instance - I don't think those are professions that naturally attract lazy people. They are stressful and become more stressful when underfunded. I know of someone who had to leave their job and was unable to work due to mental health issues. They were a train driver who had had someone go on the line in front of them (actually horrific circumstances). If you didn't know that you might think "how lazy" but it was harrowing. He couldn't drive trains again but his ability to concentrate was completely wrecked which made it harder to do other work. He did work again, but only after therapy because PTSD is real. Sometimes introspection doesn't help. But the massive waiting list for mental health treatment for really severe issues is potentially costing us loads in reduced productivity/benefits. Just cutting the benefits of people doesn't help.

5 years ago you had a very stressful event which led to young people missing out on socialising, and some groups (health workers) working incredibly long hours. You also saw the health service pushed right to the brink of collapse and already stretched services (mental health care) have never recovered.

If I thought throwing yet more money at the NHS would work, then I would say yes that’s the way forwards and less punitive. But it isn’t the answer - as discussed above, mental health treatment is not a silver bullet, it’s relatively ineffective a lot of the time and I’ve never actually known anyone be treated and then return to work if on benefits. It doesn’t look like any of the posters here have been able to do that either.

We have had this discussion. I have had a lot of treatment and still not able to work. So what should happen to me?
I have known people be treated and go back to work.

They’ve just released an update on ITV news if anyone is interested with some figures (haven’t checked other news sources)

You're absolutely right. Anecdotes are more compelling and personal than data, and the data is not known by many people.

But it is horrifying. We can't afford it, and protecting the nation is a key priority.

There will always be cases of people who really are not able to work, at any job. But there are many more who can do a job, with the right support.

Personally I know people in both categories, all that tells me is that I know some examples. No individual case can ever be generalised into a whole population.

The truth remains that most people with anxiety, depression or ND are capable of some kind of work. They always did in the past and it should not be controversial to point that out. Most of my family ticks one or more of those boxes and yes, all working in jobs that suit their needs. **

Fucking hell, it is always "anxiety, depression and ND" isn't it?
It has become a new benefit bashing trope... the new bad back.

Thank you, this isn’t about ‘benefit bashing’ it’s about the stark reality of where we find ourselves and what happens next.

Like I said, as somebody who has worked FT since the age of 19, I find it horrifying that at a moment of crisis our military are woefully underprepared and under-resourced. A whole mentality has developed around believing the only justified public spending can be on health and benefits, and anything else is a frivolous waste of money.

Not a single person has put forward how the welfare bill can be paid given it’s due to rise to £380 billion by the end of the decade. They weakly pipe up with things about Parliamentary expenses or non doms, seemingly totally unaware that even if we recouped all of that it would be a drop in the ocean - literally. And when you point this out they accuse you of ableism and being goady.

I wonder what will happen next. I suppose we will find out on the 26th.

Yes because they’re the conditions causing the rise in claims. We’re not seeing a surge of people with MS or cerebral palsy are we?

Well, what do you think should happen? How do you see the next 20/30 years, given the country’s state of affairs?

An honest answer here... I can not and do not thing far that ahead. I live a day at a time. I wont be here in 20/30 years.

How old are you if you don’t mind my asking?

mid 40s

Unless you have a life limiting health condition there’s no way of knowing whether you’ll be here in 20 years or not?

You know nothing about me. You don't need a life limiting condition to know you wont be around in a decade.

Well how can I possibly respond then? You keep pressing me on what I think should happen to you, yet any kind of response and you act like I’ve made an unsolicited statement. I think we should return to the point of the thread.

You are equating the increase in MH diagnoses with the introduction of PIP. However, PIP was the replacement for DLA, and was actually brought in to make it more difficult for people to get disability benefits, so that doesn't track.

So are you suggesting we stop benefits for MH conditions while simultaneously scrapping therapy for these conditions? Is your argument that people with NH conditions have no realistic hope of improvement, but if they are poor enough they will take up their metaphorical beds and walk? Or are they all just weak and need to pull themselves together, while accepting that there is no hope of improvement?

Every council sets up a let’s get fit programme at a local park/footie pitch/ running track . And everyone who is not working must attend -even wheelchair/motorised chairs users - and walk 4times a week
This is recorded by employees who are the support and advisor team. And gradually the daily walk is increased in distance until they can walk 2/3 miles each visit -this is a social group and everyone encourages their fellow walkers.
Then once fit they look for work.
But this won’t happen cos human rights allow people to sponge off the better off. Not get fit , get fatter and iller. And as so far this century the Gov wants votes over peoples welfare and keeping the country viable they’ll pander to people who vote for them and Britain will turn into a bigger dump.
This idea would get people off benefits and paying taxes which would fund an army but the handwringing pearl clutchers will win and we’ll fail at this and have no decent army.