I like strong women, but it’s not what you say - it’s how you say it

[AlertBird]

I really admire strong, confident women who know what they want and stand their ground. But I’ve noticed that sometimes, it’s not what is being said, but how it’s said that makes a difference.

There’s a fine line between assertive and aggressive, and I think the way someone delivers their point can completely change how it’s received. I’ve seen people shut down good ideas just because they didn’t like the delivery.

AIBU to think that being “strong” isn’t just about speaking up, but also about how you communicate? Or do people just struggle with women being direct, no matter what?

You know the difference between assertive and aggressive?
Sex - a woman behaving in a confident way is often described as "aggressive" when a man would be "confident" or "assertive" Women are also hysterical or strident
Its all patriarchal bullshit

Could you give an example op?

Of course tone plays a big role in communication, as does body language, context, personal knowledge etc.

I would hope that the words would count for more than people's feelings but I know many people find it hard to be objective about what they're being told.

I don't actually think it's the deliverer's job to make sure the listener puts aside their own preconceptions and listens to the words, but it would make them more successful.

And yes, people do struggle with women being direct. Who else finds themselves writing out a request then going back and softening it?!

People, especially men, struggle with direct women. Behaviour admired in a man is seen negatively in a woman. She's a 'ball buster ', a 'bitch' a 'harridan' etc and he's assertive, candid, straightforward, direct, gets things done.

There’s a fine line between assertive and aggressive, and I think the way someone delivers their point can completely change how it’s received.

Well quite.

This could be said about anyone - man, woman or child.

Is this specific to women or men as well OP?

Exactly this. Notions of what constitutes appropriately 'assertive' versus 'aggressive' are strongly gendered.

This.

A woman being assertive and direct in the workplace has jokes made about if she's on her period or menopausal (if older).
People roll their eyes and give each other sideways grins.

Men are never, ever told to watch how they say something. They are praised for being confident and a good leader (even when they are just all blister).

Tbh I find that anyone who uses the term "strong woman" is usually at least a little misogynistic.

do people just struggle with women being direct, no matter what?

Yes.

Men are never, ever told to watch how they say something. They are praised for being confident and a good leader (even when they are just all blister).

Had a male coworker (who has form) come into my office and talk to me in a way I didn't like. Aggressively. I stood up, put my flat hand out (a 'talk to the hand' gesture) and told him he needed to watch how me spoke to me.

He looked horrified. He's used to standing over people (he's a big bloke) and essentially shouting, and getting his way. He hasn't spoken to me since unless essential. Quite sure he'd lamp me given half a chance.

Yes it's gendered.
But there is still a huge difference between being an assertive vs aggressive and i think it's something which some women really struggle with at work. Yelling at people, belittling them are all aggressive. I've a colleague who describes herself as a strong woman, but is just an all out bully and there is plenty of examples on the work boards here.

Agreed with all that.

There is also a certain kind of woman who suffers from internalised misogyny to the extent that other women displaying confident behaviour without visibly worrying about 'how they come across' is almost unbearable to them. My mother is like this. She brought up all her daughters to be shy, smiling, deferential children and girls, and has never quite recovered from all of us saying 'Fuck that' and becoming direct, self-confident adults. To this day, I can see her quivering if she's there when I say no to a man without softening it.

Sure. For example, in a meeting, one woman might say, “I think we should go with Option A because it’s the most efficient,” while another might say, “Obviously, Option A is the only sensible choice - why are we even debating this?”

Both are making the same point, but the second comes across as dismissive and might rub people the wrong way. I’ve seen situations where a solid idea gets ignored just because of how it was delivered.

@AlertBird why are you making this an issue for only women? Your example could apply to both men and women.

People struggle with women being direct

I took my car to have a flat tyre changed
He said "your other tyres are no good"
I said again I just wanted the punctured one changing
He said "come here while I show you"
I said I didn't need to see, I just wanted the punctured one changing and he got all offended at me and "I'm just trying to help"
Well then listen to me when I've repeated myself three times!

Exactly! YABU.

To be fair, many meetings could easily have been an email. Maybe woman 2 had shit to get done and deadlines to meet? Some meetings go on forever needlessly.

Quite

Conflating issues here. Effectively getting things done requires good communication skills and that is true for men and women.

I have been extremely lucky that I have never felt that being a woman has held me back professionally or got in the way of being heard in meetings. I am a good communicator and always have been.

It is true that under confident women struggle to be heard (especially in meetings) but I think that is true for under-confident men. I just think there are more under-confident women in the work place (for a whole host of reasons) than men.

But if you were comparing 2 men delivering the same speech, surely its the exact same example?
Why only WOMEN?

But there is still a huge difference between being an assertive vs aggressive and i think it's something which some women really struggle with at work. Yelling at people, belittling them are all aggressive. I've a colleague who describes herself as a strong woman, but is just an all out bully and there is plenty of examples on the work boards here.

I had a male boss who did this. He also constantly berated my leadership style, and passed me over for promotion twice because I don't do it. The guys he promoted were similar to him. They were seen as dynamic and go-getters, I was told I don't have what it takes, despite the fact my team consistently outperformed, and enjoyed working with me. The others had terrible staff turnover and their teams were terrible for presenteeism. I left and have been promoted several times since.

Sometimes, in order to get anywhere, acting the same way as those men did, is the way women are expected to act.

I mean just don't be a rude, arrogant, patronising, condescending arsehole to get your point across and you're all good

I used to be shy, quiet and let people walk all over me but, after life altering and changing and near death experiences ( contributed by others) I no longer give a shit about what others opinions of what others think I should do.
If I'm upset/don't agree, I will be honest and stand up for myself. It may come across as "aggressive" but that's just because people don't like it when women have a voice.
Im a deeply caring person and that has been used against me but now I use it to my advantage in standing up for what I need for me and my husband and extended family ( we have no children yet)
I'm much happier.
It's not just "getting shit done" and having 'a voice" that makes a person strong by the way.

Agree with @JeMapellePing. You’re conflating two entirely separate issues, OP.

Does good communication matter in the workplace? Yes, of course, regardless of sex.

But do women get judged to a different standard when it comes to communication style? Yes, absolutely.

A delivery that would be unremarkable coming from a man can be seen as ‘ballbreaking’ and aggressive coming from a woman. Being straightforward and direct is not always an advantage for women, whereas it tends to be unfailingly so for men. See also: women’s ideas being dismissed or overlooked, then seen as an obvious and brilliant solution when regurgitated almost word for word by a man.

But people of either sex can be shit managers and poor communicators - the two things are unrelated, unless you are coming at it from a misogynistic viewpoint to start with.

Ah those pesky women. Don't deserve equality do they?