Medicine at university - waste of time?

[whoosit]

There was a thread the other day about how difficult it is for UK trained doctors to get jobs here which got quite heated. I'm not trying to reignite that flame but I have a DC who is making decisions about their future and seems to have set sights on medicine. They're very high achieving academically and do competitive sports outside of school and are generally an all round good egg. My main concern isn't whether academically they can get into med school but more to ask is it not worth them doing it because there are no jobs further down the line. It shocked me to read that thread hut wasn't sure whether that was just a bit of a mad scare mongering thread with an ulterior motive and actually training to be a doctor in this country is hard but essentially there's a job at the end of it?

Can you explain this to me a bit more?

I just don’t understand how this can be happening. The impression I have is that the NHS is so desperate that they have to recruit extensively overseas. So I’d have expected anyone studying nursing or medicine to have their pick of jobs once they qualify.

What’s happening here, howcome that’s not the case?

I am a doctor. Many aspects are hell.. trying to get a place at med school, med school, being a junior doc, exams, paperwork… given that ,there is no more privilege than to be a physician, intellectually stimulating, varied, the feeling you may have made some difference. Wouldn’t have changed it for the world… but you need to know why you are doing it , it’s hard, so hard.

Ds is studying medicine. He is a dual citizen of a Scandinavian country. At least he will be able to get training and job there. At the moment things look miserable in the healthcare system. I think he would have chosen medicine anyway.

My brother is a consultant - having trained as an accountant first.

He told my children to stay away from medicine as a career because until there is fundamental reform of the NHS, it is brutal and getting worse. He has done several rotations in Oz but didn't want to live there permanently.

It's utterly appalling that we demand medical students are the 'brightest and the best' and yet they can't have a fulfilling career in this country.

@ElleintheWoods - I'm a nurse. There are vacancies but there's a recruitment freeze as UHBs and trusts are in deficit and need to try and save money.

In Wales, however, Welsh students go through streamlining and are given jobs at the end of their degree, they can put a preference of area (eg medicine, surgical, community) but don't always get their choice, they are placed in a role. They have to stay working for NHS wales or they have to repay their fees as here NHS Wales pays their fees. In England they don't have the same system, they have loans for fees and are left to find their own jobs, without experience it's difficult for them

I believe it’s training posts which are the career path leading to consultant or GP. My elder son has been a doctor for many years and they have always been extremely competitive, he was at the top of his cohort from one of the top medical schools but lower achieving applicants are facing Hobson’s choice or failing to gain a place and the career that would follow. It’s a brutal system.

I'm a consultant in a DGH in a diagnostic specialty, within which I work mostly in my specialist interest area. I also work part-time. Essentially, I've created a job that works well for me, and mostly I enjoy what I do now, but I hated a lot of training. There's a niche for everyone in medicine, and a lot of doctors I know enjoy it; I also earn enough to support my family on 3 days a week. Not sure I'd choose medicine again though, and I'm glad my kids just don't want to do it. Basically, work hard to find what you want to do within medicine and it will be alright in the end, but there's a lot of not alright before you get to that point.

I'm a consultant and I would echo what others have said about the aspects of the job that have always been shit: rotations every 6 months for up to a decade, shift work for many years, studying and paying for post grad exams on top of work for many years, overworked and feeling unsupported often, missing out on a lot of life because you are always at work.

The more recent issue of not getting a training post I am not close to and don’t understand well but I suspect that it's not that there are NO jobs but that people aren't getting the jobs that they want and deciding to go overseas instead. To a certain extent it was ever thus as well. Certain specialties and places in the country are very competitive whereas others are not. Someone has to do care of the elderly in Grimsby rather than neurology in London. It sounds as though they changed the process and people feel they are not getting the jobs they are entitled to on merit

I suspect it is the case that there is high competition for certain jobs and people feel there is nothing they can do to influence that not that there are no jobs at all.

Crikey that sounds v bad

I've retired from the NHS last year (as a nurse) but I can well believe this. A few of the doctors I worked with in my specialty had been senior registrars for at least 7 to 8 years before getting a consultant's post.

im a nurse and in my position work very closely with the doctors in my unit, particularly the “junior doctors” which is actually anything from FY1 right up to consultant. My kids are toddlers but unless things change I would gently discourage them from medicine as a career, particularly my daughter which is sad as there aren’t enough female doctors in the NHS as it is. But it’s an incredibly difficult career path and very unsuitable for family life while training. Changing posts and locations every 6 months or so, never knowing what kind of rota you will be on as the hours will depends what department/ specialty you are doing at any given time, Endless exams and expenses. The uncertainty of your life and career doesn’t end with uni. My cousin is a doctor, she’s 40 this year and is years away from a consultant post as she’s had to take 3 years out for maternity leave, putting her way behind in her cohort and career and limiting her earning potential for the time being. It’s really not a practical career for a female looking to have a family and of course their fertile years are spent in training so there’s that to consider. That’s not to say it can’t be a fulfilling career but I think it’s wise to look at it practically and go in with eyes wide open.

At least where I work, there are lots of unfilled posts but trusts have no money so they are not being advertised. This is more significant in AHP roles (OT, SaLT, psychology) than medicine and nursing where there are requirements for core numbers for cover, but everyone is stretched and there are very few jobs being advertised.

My DD is 27 and effectively in year 8 of medicine
She wanted to follow my vocation which was not medicine but similar
I sat her down at 14 and questioned this because I felt she was possibly wanting to please me and not follow her own path
Sadly she always knew that unlike your dc academically she would struggle
She then sat me down and informed me that " you don't need straight A's to be a doctor mum ... but you need straight A' to get in !" This was going to be hard
She then wanted to do medicine so much she was handing out flu leaflets for the surgery at 15 as the only work exp she could get
She worked as volunteer doing teas and coffees and the local hospital at 18 and still does when she's home . She passed her exams well but not straight A,s
She did a 4 year Clinical Science Degree -- the top students at the end of year one had the option of transferring to year 2 of Leeds in medicine ( it was the same first year) as an alternative path . She got through but declined and finished her degree as a qualified scientist.

She then applied and completed her 5 (not 4 as post grad too difficult to get on) degree in medicine at a top London uni.
She has worked as an HCA throughout from 18 and has a great set of commutation skills as a result
She works in a bar 2 nights a week to help the finances
She shops in charity shops and batch cooks to save money
I am so proud of her
She has identified the high divorce rate and high suicide rate amongst doctors and already decided on part time GP practice as next steps and she will be amazing I'm sure
It's not for everyone but absolutely not for the faint hearted
We need these people who are committed to the vocation and want to be there to improve not only our health but the health of our children's children
These kids study around the clock for unbelievable hours at a time. Ask your dc why ...the why is key
You'll just know if this is what they want. My advice would be that if there any hesitation take a gap year and volunteer anyway in the NHS
Talk to other doctors as much as possible about the reality of the role x x

NHS problems leave new doctors without jobs www.bbc.com/news/health-68849847

I think this article explains the current issue fairly

Applicants vs jobs. Over 50% of jobs now going to doctors from abroad so UK trained staff are left unemployed. That's why they are going to Aus.

So

A) there might be an aspect of more privileged students not liking the random ballot allocation because they would have been more likely to get the better jobs under the old system. There are probably jobs for all including Drs from overseas (who we've always had BTW) but not the popular jobs that everyone wants.

B) If medical school places and output of junior Drs has expanded then there needs to be more training posts to take them because you are not a fully formed Dr when you are just our of med school but there are not enough senior staff (like me) to train them up because everyone left post pandemic. Trusts have no money at all having wasted it all on locum costs in the pandemic and the strikes and to be honest a senior nurse or AHP will be able to do a clinical job just as well as a junior Dr in most cases and more cheaply. Training a junior Dr is a long term investment and trusts have no money for training posts. This might be a temporary bottleneck which we have had on many occasions before

In summary
Medicine is a hard road. Always has been always will be and there are far easier ways to make similar money. It is also an incredible privilege and has given me much joy. You should only choose it if you really want to.

Good link form the BBC . It’s utterly rubbish. Some of these medical students will have partners and children.Imagine not finding out where your job will be until 3 weeks before you start in August - and then scrambling around to find accommodation and childcare.
But because the NhS is a monopoly employer there is nothing medical students can do about it. They will then in all likelihood be posted to a part of the country away from their support network.

When I was 33 and a resident , my job was 3 hours from home. I spent 8 months of maternity leave thinking I would have to leave DS with husband to work away. Finally the news came in the nick of time that a post near home had been found for me but my maternity leave had been a time of great anxiety and sadness.

Without being racist , International medical graduates often do not have the same language skills or understanding of the NHS working or even the same quality of education as UK trainees. They often need support from UK doctors and nurses to bring them up to speed and many elderly patients will struggle to understand someone with poor English.

IMGs are far more likely to return to their home or other countries down the line. The government needs to prioritise home trained doctors to retain the workforce.

another doctor here, 20 yrs in (hospital doc but different career path to the others upthread though as I decided not to become a consultant). It's a largely unrewarding job now and I'm planning to leave. If I knew in my teens what I know now, I'd have done something different from the start.

I came on to say what @ThePure said far more eloquently than me. And she managed not to use the word entitled.

If your child is of the type to be a politician and spend all their time on other work because the wages are a joke, than medicine isn't for them. If they want an emotionally straightforward job than medicine isn't for them. But if they want to be a doctor than encourage them to be a doctor. There will always be work of some kind even if they can't be a surgeon at Brompton. After training they will be able to afford to work part time and they can travel wherever they want with such a useful job. They need to go into it with eyes wide open, understand the process and still want to do it. But it's not a waste of time. Just a job that doesn't suit everybody.

IMO it really depends on why you want to go into medicine as it if it's worth it. If you want to train because you want to do a worthwhile, varied job that will help society and make a difference then that's a good enough reason. There are jobs available, just maybe not really appealing ones. Also working/training as a Dr is very, very hard.

A good Dr is worth their weight in gold to their patients, the NHS and society.

I'm not a Dr, but some family members are. I used to be a staff nurse. I went into that because I wanted to do a worthwhile job and learn about how the human body works/illness/treatment etc because I thought it would be a useful skill to have. The things I learnt while nursing have been invaluable through out my life and I suspect medical training is equally useful should you decide to practice long term or not.

But this year they won't all be employed as so many applicants from abroad there are not enough jobs. Why so many are HAVING to leave the country. We are the only country who don't prioritise existing staff.

Getting into training is now a 1:30 chance for some specialities.

It might be a great job but not necessarily in this country. There were not enough F1 places last year for all the UK graduates and jobs had to be made up.

I agree its your child's decision but a medical degree is very different from being a doctor. My son's was on nights after a week. There was little support. His access card was not working on some wards meaning he could not get into some patients. He rang me afterwards and said " Don't worry about me but you know when you think about crashing the car on the way home so you do not have to go to work. "

He is thinking about Australia where many doctors go for a year to experience a better quality of life. My daughter frequently has to stay late (which I understand) but often is not paid for the extra hours. She was not offered a training interview despite having both a medical degree and masters. She needs to get something published to increase her chances. However as she is giving her job her all she is not in the mood for research by the time she finishes.

Some of the registrars she works with (who are locums) have never worked in the NHS before and are not up to the job. Two agency locum consultants were asked to leave the hospital immediately following some incidents. She does night shifts at a small satellite hospital and is the only doctor there. She still likes the job but I feel I was unwise to encourage her to do medicine as much as I did.

Yes, I know a lot of medics and have been doing a bit of medical humanities teaching that brings me into touch with medical students, and I don’t think anyone is unaware of the situation.

1 in 30 'for some specialties'

It's what I said. There are jobs just not popular jobs (as someone who works in a very unpopular job)

They will all be employed. Even if they have to create jobs the NHS will do that. You said yourself that was done. What other sector does someone make a job for you. Job security is still a very good feature of medicine. That and the final salary pension.

The rest of it is the same as it ever was. I've 100% had times when I wished I could have some kind of legitimate illness like cancer so that I could take time off work (that's about the only circumstance under which I would allow myself to do so it would get any sympathy)

I'm a doctor and I'm trying to dissuade my daughter from doing medicine. She sees a happy mum and a good lifestyle now but my goodness it's been a slog. And I didn't pay fees and I got a grant so didn't end up with the debt. I hope she chooses something else.
On the other hand, I am proud of myself and I like all the knowledge I've gained over the years

My mother could have written this about me in the 00's and the generation before me did 100 hours weeks....was ever thus.