To assume teachers will leave private schools

[BagGreen24]

I'm a teacher and looking at new jobs. A job in a local independent school has come up. When I looked in to it the salary is the same as the local comp but the pension offer is much much lower as they are no longer in the teacher pension scheme.

Am I being unreasonable to think it'll be difficult to attract, recruit and retain staff now independent schools? I get behaviour will probably be significantly better and classe sizes smaller etc but I imagine it's still a difficult job and the pressure for results will be the same if not worse.

Teachers don't leave teaching because of the students. They leave because of the crazy, unmanageable workload.

The majority of state secondaries can also employ non qualified teachers. Academies and free schools are able to do this and account for around 82% of schools. The figure is around 43% in state primaries.

@BagGreen24

I would have thought that potential applicants will look at the whole package on offer, as people do for non teaching sectors. Benefits such as fee discounts, gym membership, free meals, discounted accommodation, BUPA etc at private schools will be very appealing to some.

I know loads of teachers at various schools. A couple at comprehensives especially in the inner city schools have struggled with behaviour and one left. She didn't feel supported. However I have relatively recently had a
friend leave a well respected private school for state because she found the attitudes of the children difficult. She is a very experienced teacher but couldn't take the way the kids (secondary) acted. Rude, entitled and treated teacher with contempt. Also said there was as much bullying as her previous state school and more drug use. It's not all roses.

I'm sure some teachers would rather chop a leg off than go back to state schools!

I've worked in both. The idea that private sector teachers have an easier workload is laughable.

In state there are plenty of challenges - behavioural, social (extent depending on the school and area), large classes makes behaviour management and quality teaching more difficult because there's more to differentiate.

Private - a lot more marking (despite smaller classes because its expected more frequently), longer holidays but a much higher workload in the termtimes, longer days and longer weeks, especially in boarding schools as there are compulsory extra curricular, boarding duties, weekend school and so on. Parents are very demanding.

Pay pretty comparable, state generally better pension but private has put in other perks in lieu of the good pension eg health care cash plans, fee remission.

Most teachers I know it's just about where a job comes up at the time they are looking unless they are ideologically opposed to private or they teach a subject rarely found in state like Classics. Both sectors are really struggling to recruit.

The big difference for me is that private schools like to hide from the parents how much they overwork their staff.

How rude. My dds state school is really good they are very fond of their teachers and vice versa.

The other negative about teaching in private is nightmare entitled parents. They are basically customers so
its a different dynamic to state. One friend who teaches in one has had parents yelling that they pay and are paying for those 9s!

I accept a lower salary and not being in TPS because I absolutely love my teaching job in a private school. I can’t imagine going back to bigger classes - 14-20 in a class where I am means I get to know the children so well, and I really enjoy the freedom I have not to follow the national curriculum and explore the children’s interests. Plus I teach a specialist subject to 3-11 year olds and this job is much harder to find in state schools. I am lucky thought that I’m not the main earner in our house.

Not so lucky is that my school is a small stand alone prep that is feeling the impact of VAT and other factors so will be making redundancies this year…

By the way, my own children are in an excellent state secondary so I’m not anti state!

I agree, OP, there will be an exodus of experienced teachers. Teachers in private school academies near me are striking. It will especially impact older, more senior teachers for whom retirement is in sight. A PP compared the situation to nurses happily working in private health care, but this is not a good comparison. Nurses in private health care earn significantly more and have much better working conditions and flexibility than in the NHS. There is a clear trade off. The withdrawal from the TPS really unbalances the pros and cons of working in private schools in a much more significant way that in the NHS vs private healthcare.

Yep my friend left a very nice boarding school for that very reason saying rude entitled children got away with murder because their parents were paying. I have another who has used the private sector for her child saying the parents with several children coming up were treated differently to those with only one and they just didn’t deal with the clear bullying of her child. It was ignored, excused and covered up. In our area parents seem to surf private schools trying them all so they’re clearly not all that. Have had stories from multiple friends complaining of bullying not being dealt with, drugs, dire support for SEN…..

And as for the expulsion for low level disruption, any teacher that can’t cope with low level disruption from one child is not necessarily one I’d want to be paying to teach my children. Any case of a child ending up expelled is sad and not something to crow about.I’ve always taught in the state sector and I’m proud of how well teachers in this sector teach creatively, engaging all abilities and challenges. Agree it’s the workload that’s dire.

I don't think it's always just about salary or even well behaved children.

It's about working in a supportive environment with SLT who want everyone to thrive.

I'm support staff in a private school, have children at a different private school and worked until two years ago in a state school.

The difference between SLT at the state to the private is astonishing. At the private, they don't spend their days disciplining children so they concentrate on growing the school.

Also, there are significant perks. Use of the school pool and gym, free lunches, ouf staffroom has bread supplied, toasters, fresh fruit bowl daily, biscuits, free tea and coffee machine.

They get longer holidays but the school day is quite a lot longer and if it's a boarding school there will be additional evening duties as well as Saturday morning school and often also Sunday morning chapel/supervsion of weekend sports, activities etc. It's difficult to compare state v private on a generalised basis as there are so many variables (my BIL teaches at a public school having left the state sector, but his role would be different again from teaching in an independent day school with a more typical 9-4 school day).

I have mostly taught in state but did a brief stint in private, and the majority of the teachers I worked with (and I am deeply sorry if this offends some people - I am in no way suggesting it is true in all cases) had sought out private school jobs because they could not cope in a state school. Either because their behaviour management wasn't good enough; or their pedagogy; in some cases their understanding of their subject: their organisational skills; or just their general emotional resilience.

I very much doubt these kinds of teachers would go back into state just because of poor conditions. A lot of them had basically jumped before they were pushed.

To be honest, those of us good enough to teach in state schools only stayed a year or two in private and then went back anyway, because the attitudes and values in private schools tend to be so appalling. (Most teachers are liberal thinkers with a strong sense of social justice - note I say "most", not "all").

I have worked as a supply teacher in most of the state schools in 3 counties. Trust me, behaviour is appalling. It is the reason most often cited for teachers leaving.

the majority of the teachers I worked with (and I am deeply sorry if this offends some people - I am in no way suggesting it is true in all cases) had sought out private school jobs because they could not cope in a state school. Either because their behaviour management wasn't good enough; or their pedagogy; in some cases their understanding of their subject: their organisational skills; or just their general emotional resilience.

This sounds very much like a lot of the teachers I had. I remember a few who were great teachers at my school but who wouldn't have lasted a day in an inner city comp!

So have I and aside from the normal trying it on with supply and one particular struggling school most certainly didn’t see bad behaviour across the board.

Would like to add there is bad behaviour in the private sector, bullying,MH issues, drugs….. they don’t disappear because parents have a bigger income.

So much prejudice against private schools. However, most get better results than local state schools, even those that aren’t selective in their intake and can recruit easily even with less of a pension. Plus the teachers aren’t leaving in droves. Think that tells us all we need to know.

I've worked in a variety of state and private schools. Tbh the difference in working conditions, behaviour class sizes, facilities, perks etc would probably have been more than enough to keep me in a private school compared with many state schools in spite of the pension issue.

Private schools accept untrained teachers. Not necessarily unqualified in their subject, but without PGCE or QTS. So lesser conditions and at times even lower salaries work for them.

Private schools can. It doesn't necessarily mean they all do. The private schools I've worked at paid more than state schools.

the majority of the teachers I worked with (and I am deeply sorry if this offends some people - I am in no way suggesting it is true in all cases) had sought out private school jobs because they could not cope in a state school. Either because their behaviour management wasn't good enough; or their pedagogy; in some cases their understanding of their subject: their organisational skills; or just their general emotional resilience.

Frankly, a lot of behaviour in state schools isn't really coped with properly by any teacher, and some SLTs are terrible and do not support teachers. It's not how the job should be, and I don't really see why any teacher should feel they havd to put up with it.

Well assuming that’s true it wouldn’t be surprising considering all using the sector will be rich, highly engaged parents supplementing the £££ they’re paying on education with tutoring and extra curriculars. Many SEN cases wouldn’t make entry either. I have a friend who tutors and nearly all her clients are from one particularly highly thought of private school. One does wonder why there is a need for tutoring on top if it’s so great. 😳

How rude. My DD’s private school is really good and they are very fond of the teachers and vice versa.

The other negative thing I heard about state school is nightmare unengaged parents. One friend who teaches at a state school literally had parents yelling we pay your wages when their child was suspended.

Not sure what the point of your anecdote was. The hypocrisy of your post.
Generalisations either way are pointless.

ETA: @BagGreen24 - all schools will have their pros and cons. The management style, ethos, colleagues, pupils, commute etc will impact people’s choices of why they work there. Pay, pensions and financial perks is just one part of why someone takes any job.

Why is that rude? It’s what several friends at that teach at private schools have told me. Are you suggest they are making it up?

You are implying that the PP that said something negative about state schools is making it up.
By your way of thinking, why is it rude to make a negative comment about state schools if it is true from their experience?

The example in my post is what a state school teacher told me. Of course I know and they know that it does not represent all state schools or pupils so I don’t post it on MN thinking it’s the truth about all state schools.
I only post it to point out your hypocrisy.

My own sister an excellent teacher left her state school due to how dreadful it was - there are less good schools in both sectors.

I think private school teachers get
better behaved children
longer holidays
reduced fees for their own children
sometimes accommodation
smaller class sizes

I did see in the press, a couple of months ago, that they might consider raising salaries for state paid workers in return for reducing pensions and the unions were not necessarily against it.