To think that sick time triggers are overly anxiety inducing and unreasonable?

[Agix]

Ive written here before about my personal rule where I only take sick time off work if my symptoms mean I cannot do my job. I have chronic illness, so frequently feel rather rubbish and unrested when working, but am able to do it so I do it. I work from home which helps.

However, I was off last week after a bad night turned into a migraine. Migraines not usual for me, painkillers not touching it. I could not focus and do my work, so day off it was. I don't have the kind of job where I can zone out / pretend to work /only answer emails etc.

Then a few days ago I developed a stomach bug - perhaps something I ate. Actually perfectly workable at first, just kept needing to rush to the loo and not too much discomfort, so have been working (again, from home! Don't worry!) but then last night it ramped up to 11. It continues. Hopefully it's in its death throes, darkest before the dawn sort of thing. I also tried to eat more than a cracker at dinner which was stupid of me really, the pain persists. But I absolutely cannot work with this. I feel like an alien has laid eggs in my stomach. (have called NHS 111, obviously can't do much about tummy bug except wait and see).

Have notified work, who actually are the coolest, but they have sick triggers of needing a meeting if you have 4 instances within a year. I've just had 2 within 2 weeks!

I get the purpose of sickness triggers, and employers also don't want people taking the micky, but surely people can't help being too unwell to work? You can't really limit sickness? It either happens or it doesn't, unless you're purposely licking sick people or something (I haven't).

If you're an employer or manager, how do you handle sick time and triggers? Do you find them useful or a bit weird?

Miserable. The answers are probably gonna make me feel worse 🤣

YANBU - Sick triggers are indeed a bit weird, people can't control when they are sick

YABU - Sick time triggers are useful and accurate because (reason)

P.S please forgive if I don't return to the thread. I intend to, but depends on how alien baby situation develops.

YABU - Sick time triggers are useful and accurate because sometimes people aren't sick but have other problems going on in their lives. They say they're sick because they don't know what else to do. These meetings can be a way to get more appropriate help.

Having said that, you do need good management for that to work.

Yes, it makes me anxious. I’ve got a reasonable adjustment in place so have higher triggers in place which helps. However, I still managed to get to a stage two warning in the NHS for sickness as I had so much time off 😮

Trouble is, I’ve got epilepsy and have two types of seizures. The absence
ones, I just go to work fine afterwards. With the tonic clonic ones, sometimes I’m badly injured (black eye/split lip/concussion/broken hand/fractured skull). I was going through a particularly bad spell about 9 years ago and my boss wasn’t sympathetic at all so the Union got involved and managed to finally make them see sense, especially after I said that I couldn’t be in work as I was in intensive care following 9 seizures 🙄 🙄

The thing is, without the triggers people would call in sick more often. There will always be people it effects as a fluke, who are genuinely ill that often. But without triggers there are quite a few people who would just start using it as extra, paid time off. I didn't use to believe this but since working as a manager and hearing some absolutely absurd excuses, my faith in people has diminished!

I actually thought this just after posting, that it's useful for it to be picked up on incase there is something else going on that the employee doesn't know how to communicate . Maybe even a workplace issue like bullying, or stress etc.

I think they are anxiety inducing and unfair. Most people are genuinely ill when they take time off but obviously there are some that take the mickey.

It feels like they are put in place because employers feel that the majority are making it up not the other way round!

As a manager I find it helpful as I have a lot of people to keep track of and sometimes I don't notice when someone has a regular issue. All the meetings I have are in the frame of making sure I am doing all I can to support and they have access to support or care or maybe occupational health can help etc etc.

I think you are being unreasonable. Those triggers are there to deter people from throwing sickies let’s be honest.
Surely of you have a chronic illness then this can be taken into account? Could you speak to your GP and get evidence to show them?

The number of time I see someone post on Mumsnet 'take a sick day' when a poster is a bit tired, upset or has had a row with someone. Obviously there needs to be some sort of control, or people will just wake up feeling a bit shit (don't we all in February) and decide to 'take a sick day'.

Sadly I can't disagree. Never been a manager but have certainly known people who wouldn't mind actually taking the micky.

But how do you know which is which as a manager? And what about the impact on employees who happen to be sickly/just had some bad bloody luck in a particular year?

I remember an exes family member getting pulled into disciplinary for sickness triggers, she was super distressed at the time. She'd just been feeling very unwell, which was distressing itself without work treating her like a criminal.

Very sadly, not long after, got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and passed within a few months. It just seemed so cruel that her work were so accusatory before the diagnosis.

As you have a chronic illness would your employer look at setting different trigger points for you?

Just because you hit the triggers doesn't mean work are going to take any action.
I hit a trigger point within the first 6 months of a new job but they knew I was immune suppressed and they haven't even commented, other than to tell me to take the time I need to get better

They should be, or they should take a soft approach when you hit them, because they should be mindful of their duties under the Equality Act

It’s impossible to get it right. I work in the NHS and have seen some people take the piss. They are often also the ones who take out multiple grievances and accuse others of bullying etc when they are the bullies. A toxic and lazy few make it worse for the rest of us.

What would suggest then? I agree sickness happens and we can't do much about it, but some people seem to be sick extremely often and should businesses just continue to pay for that, impact on the team etc etc. there has to be some measure in place for an employer to decide it is not worth employing you any longer

As a manager of a new team of 5 who's sickness had not been managed effectively, three months into job I had one team member being supported by occy heath for her depression and one team member being supported for her DV home situation. All discovered during sickness trigger meetings.

Sick triggers used properly are a very useful tool.

The problem is that a lot of people hear review meeting and assume punishment.

It shouldn’t be that, it should be a check in to understand what’s going on and if there are any issues. Eg. A chronic illness that isn’t being managed and would benefit from some work place adjustments. Someone returning routinely before they’re recovered and then going off sick again who needs encouragement to take more time when they’re ill and come back fit. Someone who’s using sick leave inappropriately (eg. For ill child and should be using annual leave or emergency leave).

This is from ACAS

I have been a manager for years and years, in an organisation that uses triggers.

I (and my wider organisation, I hope!) use them to normalise talking about sick absence. We have return to work conversations after each instance, and then again at trigger points. This helps us understand what is causing the sickness, signpost to other help, put reasonable adjustments in, and yes, sometimes identify piss takers.

In my case, an employee who is normally diligent and hardworking, proactive about managing any condition causing absence, proactive about suggesting reasonable adjustments etc is unlikely to be put under attendance management process or fired unless their absence level makes the job unsustainable.

On the other hand, I have fired people for excessive absence, and breaching trigger points gives me a policy to help with that process. These weren't people who were just unlucky with a bad year of viruses/bugs etc, these were people who didn't work hard when they were in work, went off sick regularly (and in one case in a pattern that matched a football teams schedule ), and when absence triggers were passed switched to coming in to work and then leaving early because sickness came ok during the day. To fire someone for excessive absence in my organisation I have to provide evidence of supporting the employee, and show that there has been and won't be any improvement in the absence rate, and the notes from meetings at trigger points make the managers collect that evidence.

I am sure there are ruthlessly efficient organisations that fire people just because of triggers (Amazon warehouses?!), but I would hope that most organisations use trigger points to support proper management of absence to the benefit of the employee and the organisation.

Work know about my health conditions and are great about it, have had occupational health, I have reasonable adjustments out the wazoo. I am often able to work through it.

But neither migraine nor stomach bug are part of my chronic illness. Maybe the migraine is slightly connected, as my health issues can result in sleepless nights which I think triggered the migraine.. But usually I don't have migraines.

To be honest I wouldn't be too scared of a meeting, they're all lovely people and very nice workplace. Just embarrassed more than anything else. I think they'd be fair with me.

This was less a question about me, and my anxiety, but a general question. I know not all workplaces are understanding like mine, and not all people who genuinely happen to need frequent sick time have chronic conditions either.

It was 3 in a year in my nhs trust. A job where you're coughed, breathed on, and covered in bodily fluids by ill people.

I think it's useful to reframe it as giving the manager a framework within which to act.

If someone takes the piss repeatedly and gets found out, the manager's on the line for it and will end up in trouble.

Having an externally set parameter at which they have to take an action, actively decide that it's OK or isn't, takes away the uncertainty for them of when they are being too lax or too strict. It's for their benefit.

My suggestion would be no set sickness triggers and take everything in a case by case basis.

But other lovely manager just posted pointing out that the triggers at least give them a policy to fall back on if they do identify a pisstaker. I can imagine things are a lot harder in that situation without a policy to point to. I can be on board with that as long as companies do take care and time to actually differentiate.

If i take sick time it is because i am sick, if i used anxiety for eveey thing i would never get anything done so no I just do it and get on with it

This is good!

My minds being changed!

My NHS trust changes the sickness triggers last year and it’s a lower threshold than what you have. I do find it more stressful and feel like you’ve got to explain yourself when you are feeling vulnerable due being ill. Some of my stress maybe related to my own baggage from previous experiences.

I totally get what you are saying - I have mild chronic issues which sometimes I have to really ‘just get through’ the day and I’m not in a role where you can get your head down and work at a desk.

It seems unfair when you have really tried and attended work, and in some instances I’ve worked over to catch up when I’ve felt more on it.

But there are some people who do seem to take the piss a lot and I really don’t know how they get away with it.