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Lucy Letby. Why do some people only read headlines?

1000 replies

skyfirechesnut · 12/02/2025 17:16

I was at work today and someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now. They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.

I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.

I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.

Here is the article.

archive.ph/NYg7U

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
User14March · 13/02/2025 12:24

Surely if there is this much reasonable, credible doubt there needs to be a retrial? Will this happen? What are next steps?

Tandora · 13/02/2025 12:24

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 11:56

But the point is the press conference wasn't the gotcha you think it is.

Research!

Come on catch up.

But the point is the press conference wasn't the gotcha you think it is

why do people constantly make this statement. It’s so cliche and childish.

Tandora · 13/02/2025 12:26

Convolvulus · 13/02/2025 09:58

No, they aren't. They're highly reputed, but not the best in the world. Plus they lack expertise in a number of the disciplines involved. Most crucially, their evidence hasn't been tested in court and accepted by a jury.

They're highly reputed, but not the best in the world

says who? You? What are your credentials to judge please, and what criteria are you using?

Tandora · 13/02/2025 12:31

Convolvulus · 13/02/2025 09:48

This only demonstrates a deep naivety about the realities of the legal system and, indeed, simple market forces.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Of course if you pay someone for a service , they are motivated to give you what you want. This is obvious. The incentive structures are very clear.

This is a major problem in the justice system at large, particularly given the adversarial nature of the system and the fact that experts are hired by each side.

Dr Dewi Evans has previously demonstrated himself to be an expert witnesses who is most particularly lacking in integrity. He makes large sums of money habitually offering himself as an expert witness in medical legal cases, and indeed inserted himself into this case actively offering his services to the police.

This context is highly relevant and you are extremely naive if you think otherwise.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/02/2025 12:34

skyfirechesnut · 12/02/2025 17:16

I was at work today and someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now. They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.

I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.

I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.

Here is the article.

archive.ph/NYg7U

“someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now.”

What has been said is that a panel of 14 of the world’s leading neonatal experts have done detailed reports on all the evidence and concluded that there were no murders. That would mean she is innocent, but the point is that there were no murders in the first place.

“They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching”

Are you taking the mick? You’re the one sharing a Daily Mail Liz Hull tabloid story! All I’ve seen is people engaging thoughtfully with an extremely serious issue. I have seen plenty of evidence of understanding, facts, and research. Plenty of people, myself included, have followed the entire thing. I have more detail on this case than I ever cared to imagine I might. I’ve read everything. Including every day of Thirlwall documents. Trust me. I 100% have my facts and research straight. In fact, I haven’t seen anyone just “going with media headlines”.

Except you that is.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.”

It’s not a “very good article”. It’s Liz Hull’s usual nonsense. I accept your apology for insulting our intelligence with it.

“I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.”

Maybe you would understand if you read more widely than the Daily Mail. Note that none of this matters whatsoever if there were no murders. That said, her dad is a manager of a furniture shop in his 70’s. Not a mafia don. She’s in prison, so how was she “totally protected”? What “beggars belief” here is the apparent lack of ability to understand that a parent protecting a child and advocating for them is not unusual. You’d do the same no doubt if someone accused your daughter of murdering lots of babies.

But again, none of this matters if there were no murders!

“I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.”

Somewhat understand? Nothing new?! Ffs. It IS new. It was SEISMIC. These experts are the best in the world. No one credible disputes that. Literally no one. These NEW reports were written by these experts in their own time working pro bono because they are so shocked at the absolute STATE of the evidence as presented in court. That should be taken seriously by everyone who values their own life and liberty, and that of their children. That’s how serious this is.

Thankfully they are being taken seriously by the people who actually make the decisions here, so you and Liz Hull will have to learn to cope.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.”

In science you literally can. These experts are objectively better than yours. That’s a stone cold fact. It’s premier league football vs the local pub five a side. It’s not even a question.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.”

Who doesn’t know this? Im pretty sure most people DO know this. Not a single one holds a candle to Dr Lee’s panel. They wouldn’t even claim to. Also they based their work on Evans reports. They didn’t work independently. They also largely qualified their conclusions by saying “consistent with” (which covers a multitude) rather than making impossible claims at certainty and outright lying like Evans did. Although, like I said, they are vastly outgunned by far superior experts. They’re utterly cooked on this one I’m afraid.

Evans, for his part, is an absolute charlatan.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.”

The drs are drs. Not medical experts. There’s a massive difference. And yes, I would dispute them. The panel of experts certainly do. As do the judges at the last CoA application hearing who rightly said Dr Jayaram’s testimony was unreliable. They said this even though they were denying her application to appeal, so they’re certainly not biased against the drs!

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.”

Do you believe everything Liz Hull tells you? They didn’t. They emphasised different factors. That’s all. They are in complete agreement on what happened.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.”

Based on what? The Liz Hull piece you shared even as you claimed others are easily swayed by the media?! The irony is mind blowing, frankly.

Here is the article.”

I already read it thanks. It’s the usual trash and desperation from Hull. You’d know that if you read more widely.

Here’s an actual article by Pr Neena Modi, former head of the RCPCH, Professor of Neonatology at London Imperial, and one of Dr Lee’s experts. A world leading neonatologist who actually knows what to she’s talking about.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/12/lucy-letby-case-trial-justice

No paywall: https://archive.ph/Hpm8E

Tandora · 13/02/2025 12:40

Convolvulus · 13/02/2025 09:55

No, I'm not going to play that game. You will need to do your own research. I've pointed you to their evidence, which was accepted by the juries. Where does what the panel said counter their evidence?

I’ve done my research and I cannot see that the conclusions of the expert panel are contradicted by the evidence given by these individuals. If you believe differently you are welcome to make those arguments.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/02/2025 12:40

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/02/2025 12:34

“someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now.”

What has been said is that a panel of 14 of the world’s leading neonatal experts have done detailed reports on all the evidence and concluded that there were no murders. That would mean she is innocent, but the point is that there were no murders in the first place.

“They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching”

Are you taking the mick? You’re the one sharing a Daily Mail Liz Hull tabloid story! All I’ve seen is people engaging thoughtfully with an extremely serious issue. I have seen plenty of evidence of understanding, facts, and research. Plenty of people, myself included, have followed the entire thing. I have more detail on this case than I ever cared to imagine I might. I’ve read everything. Including every day of Thirlwall documents. Trust me. I 100% have my facts and research straight. In fact, I haven’t seen anyone just “going with media headlines”.

Except you that is.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.”

It’s not a “very good article”. It’s Liz Hull’s usual nonsense. I accept your apology for insulting our intelligence with it.

“I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.”

Maybe you would understand if you read more widely than the Daily Mail. Note that none of this matters whatsoever if there were no murders. That said, her dad is a manager of a furniture shop in his 70’s. Not a mafia don. She’s in prison, so how was she “totally protected”? What “beggars belief” here is the apparent lack of ability to understand that a parent protecting a child and advocating for them is not unusual. You’d do the same no doubt if someone accused your daughter of murdering lots of babies.

But again, none of this matters if there were no murders!

“I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.”

Somewhat understand? Nothing new?! Ffs. It IS new. It was SEISMIC. These experts are the best in the world. No one credible disputes that. Literally no one. These NEW reports were written by these experts in their own time working pro bono because they are so shocked at the absolute STATE of the evidence as presented in court. That should be taken seriously by everyone who values their own life and liberty, and that of their children. That’s how serious this is.

Thankfully they are being taken seriously by the people who actually make the decisions here, so you and Liz Hull will have to learn to cope.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.”

In science you literally can. These experts are objectively better than yours. That’s a stone cold fact. It’s premier league football vs the local pub five a side. It’s not even a question.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.”

Who doesn’t know this? Im pretty sure most people DO know this. Not a single one holds a candle to Dr Lee’s panel. They wouldn’t even claim to. Also they based their work on Evans reports. They didn’t work independently. They also largely qualified their conclusions by saying “consistent with” (which covers a multitude) rather than making impossible claims at certainty and outright lying like Evans did. Although, like I said, they are vastly outgunned by far superior experts. They’re utterly cooked on this one I’m afraid.

Evans, for his part, is an absolute charlatan.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.”

The drs are drs. Not medical experts. There’s a massive difference. And yes, I would dispute them. The panel of experts certainly do. As do the judges at the last CoA application hearing who rightly said Dr Jayaram’s testimony was unreliable. They said this even though they were denying her application to appeal, so they’re certainly not biased against the drs!

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.”

Do you believe everything Liz Hull tells you? They didn’t. They emphasised different factors. That’s all. They are in complete agreement on what happened.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.”

Based on what? The Liz Hull piece you shared even as you claimed others are easily swayed by the media?! The irony is mind blowing, frankly.

Here is the article.”

I already read it thanks. It’s the usual trash and desperation from Hull. You’d know that if you read more widely.

Here’s an actual article by Pr Neena Modi, former head of the RCPCH, Professor of Neonatology at London Imperial, and one of Dr Lee’s experts. A world leading neonatologist who actually knows what to she’s talking about.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2025/feb/12/lucy-letby-case-trial-justice

No paywall: https://archive.ph/Hpm8E

Edited

Brava @Kittybythelighthouse

The doubling down on the guilty findings despite the furore is astonishing.

Tandora · 13/02/2025 12:42

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/02/2025 12:40

Brava @Kittybythelighthouse

The doubling down on the guilty findings despite the furore is astonishing.

Truly astonishing

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/02/2025 12:44

User14March · 13/02/2025 12:24

Surely if there is this much reasonable, credible doubt there needs to be a retrial? Will this happen? What are next steps?

The CCRC assembled a special team to focus on this case last September, many months before they even got the application. That’s unprecedented btw. They announced that they’d opened their review on the same day as the press conference, the very day they received the application. It’s with them now.

They will review and either refer back to the Court of Appeal or not. However, it seems extremely likely that they will. I haven’t seen any credible legal commentator say otherwise. Normally they take up to ten years to deal with cases. They are motivated to do some damage control though given fallout over other recent high profile miscarriages of justice. They may be quite a bit quicker this time.

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/02/2025 12:48

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/02/2025 12:40

Brava @Kittybythelighthouse

The doubling down on the guilty findings despite the furore is astonishing.

It’s actually scary. This isn’t just a juicy true crime story. If the panel are correct (and no one credible is disagreeing with them) and there were no murders that is seismic. It goes to the heart of two of our most important institutions, the justice system and the NHS, both of which our lives, and our children lives, literally depend on. It is in no one’s interests to sweep this to one side.

I think some who comment on this with a pro guilt perspective are missing the big picture here. Even if she is guilty as sin you should want the case to be reviewed for the above reason. It’s a turkeys voting for Christmas scenario otherwise.

Tandora · 13/02/2025 13:02

Kittybythelighthouse · 13/02/2025 12:44

The CCRC assembled a special team to focus on this case last September, many months before they even got the application. That’s unprecedented btw. They announced that they’d opened their review on the same day as the press conference, the very day they received the application. It’s with them now.

They will review and either refer back to the Court of Appeal or not. However, it seems extremely likely that they will. I haven’t seen any credible legal commentator say otherwise. Normally they take up to ten years to deal with cases. They are motivated to do some damage control though given fallout over other recent high profile miscarriages of justice. They may be quite a bit quicker this time.

If the CCRC send it back to the court of appeal will they actually take it seriously this time? Will it be the same judges?

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 13:09

TuesdayRubies · 12/02/2025 20:45

The experts established a clear explanation for every single death. Sometimes natural causes and sometimes medical malpractice. If you can't read or watch the press conference it's just stupid to share your ill informed views.

Oh the irony

OP posts:
skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 13:20

Tandora · 12/02/2025 20:50

Liz Hull is extremely dumb and extremely wrong.

YABU.

Thank you for your valuable content to the thread.

OP posts:
Dramatic · 13/02/2025 13:26

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 13:09

Oh the irony

What is ironic about that comment?

Dramatic · 13/02/2025 13:27

@Kittybythelighthouse fantastic post, you've said everything much more eloquently than I could but that's pretty much how I feel about the whole thing.

Tandora · 13/02/2025 13:27

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 13:20

Thank you for your valuable content to the thread.

It’s all that really needs to be said in response to the garbage she continues to post at this stage.

Tandora · 13/02/2025 13:28

Dramatic · 13/02/2025 13:26

What is ironic about that comment?

Absolutely nothing.

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 13:34

@Glitterbomb123

She has messed up her wording to the point the judge had to close court that day.

OP posts:
Scammersarescum · 13/02/2025 13:36

I've always found it disturbingly akin to the Sally Clark case.

@Kittybythelighthouse has summed up beautifully. Perhaps the daily mail would be better off asking her to write a piece.

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 14:04

Some interesting points raised here about Shoo Lee and his merry band of experts.

Posted from another platform - not my work -

This panel isn't particularly independent though 🤔

Modi's involvement is outright inappropriate given her role as president of the RCPCH at the time of the Letby situation and her exchanges with Brearey. They mention she contacted the defense - is that independent? Is that appropriate given Letby's exoneration allows her own incompetence and questionable decision making to be dismissed?

3 members of this panel aren't clinicians. 2 are mechanical engineers. 1 is a nurse from Canada.

Lee has worked/collaborated with at least 3 other individuals - and with time I'm sure there will be more connections made by those with time to establish that these experts are not independent of one another.

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/02/2025 14:09

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 14:04

Some interesting points raised here about Shoo Lee and his merry band of experts.

Posted from another platform - not my work -

This panel isn't particularly independent though 🤔

Modi's involvement is outright inappropriate given her role as president of the RCPCH at the time of the Letby situation and her exchanges with Brearey. They mention she contacted the defense - is that independent? Is that appropriate given Letby's exoneration allows her own incompetence and questionable decision making to be dismissed?

3 members of this panel aren't clinicians. 2 are mechanical engineers. 1 is a nurse from Canada.

Lee has worked/collaborated with at least 3 other individuals - and with time I'm sure there will be more connections made by those with time to establish that these experts are not independent of one another.

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Been on reddit perchance?

JandamiHash · 13/02/2025 14:11

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 14:04

Some interesting points raised here about Shoo Lee and his merry band of experts.

Posted from another platform - not my work -

This panel isn't particularly independent though 🤔

Modi's involvement is outright inappropriate given her role as president of the RCPCH at the time of the Letby situation and her exchanges with Brearey. They mention she contacted the defense - is that independent? Is that appropriate given Letby's exoneration allows her own incompetence and questionable decision making to be dismissed?

3 members of this panel aren't clinicians. 2 are mechanical engineers. 1 is a nurse from Canada.

Lee has worked/collaborated with at least 3 other individuals - and with time I'm sure there will be more connections made by those with time to establish that these experts are not independent of one another.

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Kind of blows the “top class” expert theories out the water doesn’t it.

Let the baby killer fans embarrass themselves. They don’t have a first clue about how the CJS or medical research works. Nothing has proven. Anyone can collate a panel and book a meeting room.

Minnie798 · 13/02/2025 14:12

skyfirechesnut · 13/02/2025 14:04

Some interesting points raised here about Shoo Lee and his merry band of experts.

Posted from another platform - not my work -

This panel isn't particularly independent though 🤔

Modi's involvement is outright inappropriate given her role as president of the RCPCH at the time of the Letby situation and her exchanges with Brearey. They mention she contacted the defense - is that independent? Is that appropriate given Letby's exoneration allows her own incompetence and questionable decision making to be dismissed?

3 members of this panel aren't clinicians. 2 are mechanical engineers. 1 is a nurse from Canada.

Lee has worked/collaborated with at least 3 other individuals - and with time I'm sure there will be more connections made by those with time to establish that these experts are not independent of one another.

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Shoo Lee has a clear motivation. He has had a motivation since his work was rejected and his recent comments show his agenda. This is not independent, nor is it anything more than expert shopping.

"14 experts" - but actually only 11 doctors and how many were consulted for the original trial?

Who were the mechanical engineers? Are we saying that a neonatal nurse is incapable of being an expert in the care of neonatal babies? I’d disagree.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 13/02/2025 14:13

JandamiHash · 13/02/2025 14:11

Kind of blows the “top class” expert theories out the water doesn’t it.

Let the baby killer fans embarrass themselves. They don’t have a first clue about how the CJS or medical research works. Nothing has proven. Anyone can collate a panel and book a meeting room.

Please do explain and enlightening us then. Ad we're all so thick. And please state your qualifications to do so ...

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 13/02/2025 14:19

Minnie798 · 13/02/2025 14:12

Who were the mechanical engineers? Are we saying that a neonatal nurse is incapable of being an expert in the care of neonatal babies? I’d disagree.

I assume she’s referring to Prof Geoff Chase, an international expert on insulin control and delivery.

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