Lucy Letby. Why do some people only read headlines?

[skyfirechesnut]

I was at work today and someone says so Lucy letby is innocent now. They have just gone with the media headlines. Instead of researching.

Sorry for the fail link but this is quite a good article below on the current state of things. The author has attended all trials and listened to appeals and conferences.

I also don't understand people who say she was scapegoated. If people follow the Thirwall enquiry this is far from the case. She was totally protected, her parents calling up, being in meetings, dictating apologies. It beggars belief.

I can somewhat understand people saying she is innocent based on medical evidence after the press conference but even that is nothing new.

You can't say my expert is better than yours.

Also people seem to think it was all Dewi Evans for the prosecution it wasn't. There was Dr Bohin, Prof Arthurs , Prof Hindnarsh and Dr Mar etc.

That is without the Doctor colleagues if you want to dispute them.

Then they new defence have changed ideas from the conference they had in December.

They are also not totally impartial.
It isn't as simple as the headlines.

Here is the article.

archive.ph/NYg7U

First tier.

Top expert is a casual way of putting it but I think most people understand she's not suggesting there's a league table!

See! No-one thought of this before!" when actually the issues in question had been extensively canvassed before and during the trial and answered by at least equally eminent experts in the relevant fields, which were not necessarily neonatology.

You are going to have to be more specific here. What precisely did they get wrong, that was “answered” by a more qualified person with more relevant expertise please? Not generalisms,a specific example of an error in statement that has been refuted by a more qualified expert with more relevant experience (also with a justification of the latter).

This issue around witnesses being paid is a major misunderstanding that has been around for far too long, Of course experts are paid. They cannot live on air. In literally every trial, whether it be criminal or civil, you will find that expert witnesses on each side are being paid. None of that devalues their evidence. They have to comply with their own professional standards. More materially, no expert tailors their evidence to suit the wishes of whoever is paying them, for the simple reason that they will be exposed very quickly and will find their professional reputation and career destroyed.

Letby's MN defenders have been trotting out this line about one of a number of paid witnesses ever since the trial as if it were some sort of "Gotcha", and blithely ignoring every attempt to explain the reality. It's as if they're desperately closing their eyes, ears and brains to everything that might possibly indicate that they could be mistaken.

For example, the evidence of Professor Arthurs, Professor Hindmarsh, and Professor Marnerides.

Of course there is no league table, but they are absolutely some of the most preeminent neonatologists in the world. Shoo Lee himself stated at the press conference that they are , in his words , the “Creme de la creme”. What basis do you have for challenging that?

Dewi has long been known for his dodgy evidence in trials…and yet he was still used. The mind boggles!

What are you talking about. It’s not a misunderstanding , it’s a fact. And very much a relevant one.

Be specific please. What did they say that answers what the panel said?

As to what?

Arthur and Marnerides were clear that their evidence could only be read in conjunction with Evans's explanations. It wasn't diagnostic or unambiguous in itself.

Hindmarsh has made one statement on insulin. Chase &c disagree and reference experiments and research conducted since the trial as (new) evidence.

Nobody would object to Evans being paid if he showed the impartially that is due to his role and thereby earned his money.

Haha! Now I know you’re just making things up. Have you actually looked at the experts Professor Shoo approached? They are the best in the world. It’s not like he popped to the hospital next door and saw who was sitting around having a cuppa. If you are going to debate this at least do your research or you just end up looking like a numpty.

They have to comply with their own professional standards.

They should. Evans didn't.

More materially, no expert tailors their evidence to suit the wishes of whoever is paying them, for the simple reason that they will be exposed very quickly and will find their professional reputation and career destroyed.

Unfortunately Evans worked mostly in family courts with secret proceedings and less chance of exposure until now.

The neonatologists rated as number 1 and 2 in the world both appeared at the conference.

1. Dr. Shoo Lee: A retired Canadian neonatologist and former president of the Canadian Neonatal Foundation, Dr. Lee has been influential in neonatal research and healthcare policy.
2. Professor Neena Modi: A professor of neonatal medicine at Imperial College London and former president of the Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health, Professor Modi has contributed extensively to neonatal research and policy.

Many others at the conference appear in the top 20.

Now look at Dewi Evan’s history and controversies. It’s a scandal in itself that he was allowed to give evidence - many judges have expressed that the expert witness in the UK needs urgent reform.

Wasn’t he also previously in trouble with a judge in a different trial for not complying with those professional standards? Doesn’t seem to have hurt him does it.

Yes he was. Absolutely scandal he was still allowed to step foot in a courtroom. He won’t after this.

More materially, no expert tailors their evidence to suit the wishes of whoever is paying them, for the simple reason that they will be exposed very quickly and will find their professional reputation and career destroyed

You are honestly very naive if you truly believe this.

More than naive…stupid! Read his history!

Anyone who thinks Letby's "defenders" are randomly picking on Dewi Evans might want to have a look at Private Eye, here https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/lucy-letby-6.pdf and here https://www.private-eye.co.uk/pictures/special_reports/lucy-letby-8.pdf as a starting point.

He's deeply unserious.

Think Dewi’s ‘best’ quote is that babies are simple. There are not many things that can go wrong with them. That would be hilarious if it wasn’t so dangerous. Neonates are some of the most difficult patients to look after.

He is a money-grabbing dinosaur with a god complex who should have been put out to pasture years ago before he damaged so many lives.

I also enjoyed his amazing scientific discovery two years after the trial:

Evans told the Guardian he now recognised there were probable medical causes for the air in the stomach seen on the X-ray, including that the baby had not had a bowel movement.

“What I had not realised – I don’t think any of us realised – was the delayed bowel action was a more important factor in causing the air in the stomach,” he said.

...

Evans said his new opinion was based on the baby’s sudden collapse and unsuccessful resuscitation on 13 June 2015, on ruling out other possible causes, and realising that Letby was on shift, and had gone into the baby’s room.

“Something must have happened,” he said. “I know that’s not a very scientific term.”

Babies get wind! But it's okay, there was still a murder. We know that because Letby was there. At another time, but it's enough.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/dec/20/my-kind-of-case-intense-focus-falls-on-lucy-letby-trial-expert-witness

She's 100% guilty. Can't wait for the baby killers fan club to realise she ain't ever coming out; she's exactly where she's belongs.

I don't know if Letby is guilty, I don't know if she's innocent. BUT I do believe it's possible she's been scapegoated due to personal experience.

Over a decade ago, DC almost died when multiple errors from different medical professionals led to a life threatening birth defect being missed 4 times in utero and in the days after birth. It was found and treated when DC ended up in hospital days away from death. When complaints were made, rather than hold their hands up and admit that their error contributed to the situation... Professionals just passed the blame onto other departments.

We found out about another serious but not life threatening misdiagnosis several years later. Again everybody just passed the blame to someone else.

Neither situation is anything like Letby's, but they opened my eyes to how quickly professionals will push the blame elsewhere if they need to. I don't know if Letby was scapegoated, but I can see how it could have been possible.

If I witnessed the blame game and I was "just" a patients parent, then I dread to think what goes on behind closed doors when things go wrong in the NHS.

Fantastic reasoned argument there. Lots of research and evidence. Slow clap. Well done.

Quite Frankly, I don’t care if she’s guilty or innocent. I have no skin in the game. What I do care about is having a robust legal system in the UK and this case is proof that we do not.

Riddle me this @IWantToGetOffHelp when did I fucking ask you?

Do you have any more information than that please? It’s been mentioned on these threads, but not a much as I would have expected if there was a whole missing vial.

On another thread it was said that a Dr testified that it was impossible to say whether or not there was less insulin left in a multi-dose vial than there should have been. Which is a feature of multi-dose vials, and not an indicator of anything.