To think parents are being screwed over here?

[Bumpitybumper]

I was reading an article today that was discussing how population growth fuels economic growth and how our low birth rate is negatively impacting our economy. They also make the point that productivity is being hugely harmed by growing numbers of young people being economically inactive and often citing mental health issues that were present from childhood. There was an interesting paragraph in the article that made me stop and think:

'We have socialised the cost of old age – everyone is entitled to pensions and healthcare, regardless of whether they have “replenished” the economy by having children of their own – but privatised the cost of parenthood, removing entirely the link between bearing children and future economic security'

I think the journalist has a real point. It is in everyone's interests to make sure that we have an abundant, healthy workforce for when we hit old age and yet this burden is being disproportionately being carried by fewer and fewer people who are choosing parenthood. Surely you either socialise both elements properly (parenthood and care for the elderly) or none? Otherwise more and more people will opt out of having children in the full knowledge that they can skip expensive nursery fees and other costs, with the full knowledge that this doesn't in anyway invalidate their entitlement to assistance as they age.

There’s never been so many economically inactive working age young people as there is now.

the majority of them are students.

There are 3.5m over 50s who are inactive due to early retirement and ill health.

And pitting the child-bearers against the child-free in many cases . . .

That's just silly. It's not about everyone doing care work, although plenty of people's children will be doing care work, including helping their own parents.

The point is that all of us when we are older depend on a whole host of younger people to make our lives livable. Including your doctor, the guy who manages your pension, the people who milk the cows, the guy who takes care of your garden.

The parents of these people have taken a major financial risk to have and raise them. In fact they may have a less comfortable retirement than you did, because you chose not to have kids and keep those funds for your own use.

It's not telling you that you have to have children, it's about taking the labour and financial work of other people and effectively distributing it to others who are often better off.

It's quite interesting that so many seem to say, just import immigrants. So the well off who have no kids here in the west can benefit from the financial outlay and economic risk of the parents who raised those kids in the developing world. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose, I guess.

Yes, extended education for so many is a problem. It's not really creating more productivity at this point.

Yes, extended education for so many is a problem

we want an educated population...

It's not really creating more productivity at this point.

We don't have low productivity because of a 1m students 😆. We never recovered from the 08 crash. Ageing populations tends to reduce productivity.

The main thrust of the article seems to be veering dangerously close to something like that conclusion. There is something deeply unpleasant (and unethical) about trying to guilt people who don’t want children into having them by claiming that they are somehow less deserving of support later in life because they haven’t reproduced. People having unwanted children is not good news for society, generally speaking. It’s all divide and conquer, though, isn’t it? If they can distract child-bearing women by persuading them to call child-free women selfish, and distract the child-free by making them feel they need to justify their choices, it keeps everyone too busy to see who and what is actually the problem/solution.

Should have ASed me. I live in a shitty one bedroom sauna of a social housing flat Im one of those "poors" that chose not to have kids (because i didnt want them not because the Govenment said not to have kids that we couldnt afford but that IS what we were being told)

When a working class woman chooses not to have kids it is much more to her detriment than it is for a middle class woman. For the former there is no chance of a house with a garden re social houding policy unless you have reproduced, wheras a high earner can buy a bloody house I WAS a care worker.

Oh, the whole birth rate panic is absolutely steeped in classism, racism, ableism etc. I chose not to have children in part due to disability; I’m not convinced I would have been able to provide a child with adequate care. I can’t deny that to be labelled as selfish and some kind of economic drain for making that decision is a bit galling. Without a shadow of a doubt there would have been people who would have accused me of selfishness for reproducing, too, so this was always an unwinnable situation for me. I’ve been fortunate enough to have been able to work all my life (so far), but my precarious health has thrown into sharp relief how utterly dehumanising it is to be considered as en economic unit and nothing else. What people contribute to society is nuanced and goes beyond their net economic contribution across a lifetime.

Of course, the elephant in the room remains the way in which our society refuses to make the changes required to ensure that people can be secure in their decision to have children — childcare, renters’ rights/house prices, women’s workplace rights, gendered labour in the home etc. I’m not sure I’m the obtuse one for not wanting to work my kids’ early years just to hand over my entire pay check for childcare, for example . . .

What people contribute to society is nuanced and goes beyond their net economic contribution across a lifetime.

this

I don’t believe there will be any population crisis long term. Taking the long term view, the U.K. is one of the most climatically stable countries - as climate change ramps up, the difficulty will he stopping people fleeing to such ‘safe’ places in numbers beyond what we can support.

Even short term there’s no reason for a low indigenous birth rate to be an issue - there are plenty of people who wish to live here - boatloads of them.

The indigenous white, Anglo Saxon or Celtic Christian background Brit may become a minority. In order for society to function the incomers will require to work though.

The planet needs a declining world population to sustain itself (if we even have a planet!) and governments are just going to have to work round the problem of keeping older people. They probably won’t. With the advance of AI there will mass unemployment and it’ll be like living in some dystopian Blade Runner future. They’ll be marching us to oldies to dignitas centres en masse rather than paying us pensions economies can’t afford.

What a ridiculous sentiment drenched with entitlement.

You chose to have children. Some people chose not to have children. Some people are unable to have children.

Parents should absolutely receive additional support for that choice - such as better maternity leave and pay, cheaper childcare, etc. Many childfree people advocate for this and have no qualms about paying taxes which support your children, because we appreciate the importance of investing in the next generation.

But statistically, your choice to have children may not be a net contributor long-term. What if your child is disabled and unable to ever work? What if your child ends up in a low-income job and pays little tax? What if your child ends up in and out of the prison system?

Do you then lose your entitlement to a pension if that's the case? Do we have a little calculation system that tallies it up, and if your child is able-bodied, and enters in a middle to higher income earning threshold, you get a pension, but otherwise, sorry, you lose - you took to much.

Get off your moral high horse because you chose to reproduce and stop trying to throw people who made different choices under the bus to make yourself feel better about the choice you made in life.

The only rich country where birth rate isn't falling off a cliff is israel where childbirth and family is celebrated. Housing and prices are insane but it doesn't stop people.

And childless/childfree women are not valued at all.