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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
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sergeantmajormum · 08/02/2025 18:02

The petition by resident doctors supporting the BMA residents committee stance on prioritisation for UK graduates has now been opened up so non-medics can sign : https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AG81slUu9iK4e1gVwnkT2nLlBRZepvL2/view?pli=1 scroll through the report, link to petition is near the end.

UKG Petition.pdf

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1AG81slUu9iK4e1gVwnkT2nLlBRZepvL2/view?pli=1

PlopSofa · 08/02/2025 18:04

@takeittakeit you are too harsh and blinkered. Even the BMA said it will investigate what’s currently going on.

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 18:05

@PlopSofa even the GMC are investigating! And they love PAs.

Needmoresleep · 08/02/2025 18:32

PlopSofa · 08/02/2025 18:04

@takeittakeit you are too harsh and blinkered. Even the BMA said it will investigate what’s currently going on.

Have they? Where?

I read the silly statement yesterday saying we needed more medical school places.

I hope this thread has helped.

We discovered slightly by chance last week that that our F2 DC were not alone in feeling glum about their prospects, so started this one to help gain attention. Lots of people have posted really useful things.

Looking into it is not enough. This needs to be addressed quickly.

The Government will be mad if they don't. The public will hate the waste of money and do care about having consultants available if they need them. Immigration, if not required is unpopular and with housing, relocation, schools etc might well make immediate demands on scarce resources. I also worry about the idea that you don't hire local GPs, or indeed nurses and other HCPs because staff hired from overseas are cheaper and more pliable.

In addition several of these F2s will have influential parents who can make things uncomfortable.

Individuals who are part of the decision making process need to hear the message again and again, until they understand that it is completely mad and short sighted to give jobs to people overseas in preference to those in the UK.

With the backlog it will take some time before things normalise. Will we ever get back to all but 5% getting onto training. What will the others do?

OP posts:
CherubEarrings · 08/02/2025 19:03

Why have the BMA left it so long? It was obvious what was happening years ago. Result the 2025 cohort of junior doctors are in a dreadful situation.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 19:27

mumsneedwine · 06/02/2025 19:44

Hope MSRA went well for anyone who got results today.

You keep saying your DD is going to either Australia or NZ and has a job lined up in one (but you're not sure which), so have her results confirmed that she's no chance of an interview? Because you asked other people but didn't reveal your own hand. And now you've mentioned Australia again. So is your DD hopeful of an interview or is it now confirmed that she's going to Aus (or NZ)?

takeittakeit · 08/02/2025 19:37

Ladies you are advocating for run through training - which cm in during the early 2000s, ie medschool fy1, fy2 ct1, ct2, cte - 6 consultant.

It floundered as pure run through because a lot of people did not know what they wanted to do, ended up button holed into a career that was not for them but did not dare give up there number, wanted to jump off the treadmill and take a brek, try something different, become hippy nd could not because once off they would not get back on. i know a number of surgeons who really would prefer to eb in another speciality but were too scared to jump off.

One of the biggest issues mentally for people coming out of foundation is this is the first really competitive interview they have had since med school and the first time they have not got what they wanted when they wanted - for alpha achievers not used to failure it is a big shock but that is the reality of many jobs in life.

25% chance of becoming a doctor - you are twisting data to fit your narrative, the majority of doctors will continue ( more do leave than previously)but the vast majority end up stating as doctors in one format or another - being a consultant is not the be all and end all. Some of the happiest collegues I know have taken a non standard route enjoyed their journey and come to a place they enjoy still as doctors.
YOu are seeing everything as linear and black and white

AS to going to OZ, personally would go to NZ - it maade me realise my chosen path was so wrong for me allowed me to find what i truly wanted to do and grow up! Your daughters are doing the right thing.

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:48

@Wooleys again, rent free in your head. I know many F2s. Please leave my DD out of this. Attack me all you want if it makes you feel better about yourself.

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:52

Ladies, we are advocating no such thing. We and our DC fully realise that they might have to take a few years to get into training. In the past they'd have had a job for those few years. As a doctor not an Uber driver. This year they won't.

I still fail to understand that any doctor, who values evidence based knowledge, can look at the information provided by NHSE, RCP and GMC and still deny the problem. But there we are. We have doctors who'd rather train PAs.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 19:52

You asked other people how they did and you also keep referencing your own DD. Literally all of the time. So either don't ask others or stop referencing how personal this is to you. I'm sure your DD did just fine and will get a training post and indeed I hope that she does.

CherubEarrings · 08/02/2025 19:54

takeittakeit · 08/02/2025 19:37

Ladies you are advocating for run through training - which cm in during the early 2000s, ie medschool fy1, fy2 ct1, ct2, cte - 6 consultant.

It floundered as pure run through because a lot of people did not know what they wanted to do, ended up button holed into a career that was not for them but did not dare give up there number, wanted to jump off the treadmill and take a brek, try something different, become hippy nd could not because once off they would not get back on. i know a number of surgeons who really would prefer to eb in another speciality but were too scared to jump off.

One of the biggest issues mentally for people coming out of foundation is this is the first really competitive interview they have had since med school and the first time they have not got what they wanted when they wanted - for alpha achievers not used to failure it is a big shock but that is the reality of many jobs in life.

25% chance of becoming a doctor - you are twisting data to fit your narrative, the majority of doctors will continue ( more do leave than previously)but the vast majority end up stating as doctors in one format or another - being a consultant is not the be all and end all. Some of the happiest collegues I know have taken a non standard route enjoyed their journey and come to a place they enjoy still as doctors.
YOu are seeing everything as linear and black and white

AS to going to OZ, personally would go to NZ - it maade me realise my chosen path was so wrong for me allowed me to find what i truly wanted to do and grow up! Your daughters are doing the right thing.

There are still run through specialties radiology, O&G and paeds. There may be others.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 19:54

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mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:55

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mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:57

The j in not good thing about the ridiculous people who just seem to want to argue is that they are keeping this thread trending, Which is good news !

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:59

Typing in a car. In the dark, on a windy road.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 19:59

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Wooleys · 08/02/2025 20:01

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 19:59

Typing in a car. In the dark, on a windy road.

Ah that explains a bit.

mumsneedwine · 08/02/2025 20:02

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Wooleys · 08/02/2025 20:07

But pause for just a second mumsneedwine. How on earth could anyone possibly 'out' your DD? Only your own lack of regard to her privacy could do that.

I think also a brief request for you to stop being extremely personal to other posters who are challenging you would be in order. the adjectives you use - even though this is AIBU - are not acceptable and really you should have been reported to MN for calling someone a troll, who has shown very clearly that they are not. No apology to that poster though I note.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 20:11

Stop, grow up and leave me alone

Of course. I've no interest in you in particular other than on an equitable do as you would be done by basis. So please respect basic rules of courtesy. Because you've actually been extremely rude and breached the guidelines.

But I'm all for returning to the theme of the thread.

Wooleys · 08/02/2025 20:12

I'd just lastly like to point out that I'm not a lone voice here because my posts about your lack of manners are attracting 'likes'.

Needmoresleep · 08/02/2025 20:27

What worries me is if the figure is really 5% or 25% it will be very much weighted to a very organised an ambitious group, largely centred on London.

Many medical schools like to see local applicants from linked schools and offer foundation years etc. (Bristol with applicants from the far West of England, St Andrews with applicants from the Highlands and Islands.) They know there are areas where GP and other vacancies can be hard to fill.

With international competition, especially anonymised, these applicants may not stand a chance. Already posts have been lost to PAs. Many won't want to move. Entry level jobs seem to be being spammed by hundreds of applicants from overseas. They may not ever make the top 25% using criteria weighted towards academic achievements, but they would be top 25% in terms of suitability for rural jobs. With huge debt, what are they supposed to do if the best they can hope for is a few bank shifts.

Unless policy changes quickly this is going to get worse and worse.

OP posts:
Wooleys · 08/02/2025 20:48

This reply has been deleted

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My second and last report. The reference to 'knock yourself out' is disturbing. It's violent imagery at the very least and on this site in particular shouldn't really be allowed to stand.

Thanks again MN.

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