Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to be furious that there are no jobs for young doctors

1000 replies

Needmoresleep · 04/02/2025 09:18

Yes, you read it right!

At the end of their two foundation years (F1 & F2), young UK trained doctors are struggling to find work. They don’t want to go to Australia or NZ but for many this will be the only option. Seven or eight years study and work down the drain.
The UK supposedly has a shortage of doctors, so immigration rules have been amended to encourage overseas applicants. They then complete equally with those who are working in, or studied in the UK for both general entry level jobs (known informally as F3s) and for speciality training positions.

The average hard-working doctor does not stand much of a chance. Anecdotally even quite ordinary vacancies will attract hundreds if not thousands of on-line applications. The NHS does not keep statistics, but it appears that to keep numbers manageable many NHS Trusts will shut applications within a few hours. Tough for the junior doctor who is at work or sleeping off a night shift. The best from overseas will be very qualified with perhaps a decade of experience, and lots of additional bells and whistles, so it probably does not matter. They will score better so the chance of an interview for a young doctor who needs to build their own experience will be vanishingly low.

The expansion of medical school places, and allocation of some of these traditional entry level roles to Physician Associates is only exacerbating the problem.

Training positions are even more competitive. The Government has introduced a number of incentives to encourage applicants from overseas: exemptions from exams, guarantees on training and promises for British citizenship. Medical school places have been expanding without a parallel increase in training opportunities so bottlenecks would have happened anyway. In 2021 36% of new trainees were from medical schools outside the UK. In 2023 it was 41.5%. This trend is expected to be continuing, even accelerating.

A group of us have been on the higher education board since our DC were applying for medical school. They are now F2s spread across the country, working long hours for relatively little pay but enjoying the contribution they are making. None of them expect to get either a short term contract or a training position, so are applying to Australia or accepting that they will be reliant on zero hours NHS bank work covering staff absences.
As taxpayers we should be concerned that we are paying for medical schools, yet the NHS is not supporting their graduates into employment. We might also question why we are not giving priority to those already working in the NHS for the limited training slots. Doctors from elsewhere may be very good, but a significant proportion are then likely to leave to return home or to take up well paid private consultancy posts in either their home countries or in medical hubs like Dubai or Singapore.

Keir Starmer has said he will review sectors seeking labour from abroad to ensure that applications for the relevant visa routes, whether it’s the skilled worker route or the shortage occupation list will be balanced with expectations on training people here in our country. Wes Streeting seems to be refusing to answer questions on the topic. Whilst last week the BMA finally issued the following statement, albeit limited to training:
https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

Any action will be too late for our DC. When they applied for medicine they did not realise that it would mean having to leave the country. The hope has to be that a way is found to retain those that follow and to allow our impressive young people to be able to return.

Press release icon

BMA statement on speciality training application bottlenecks - News and opinion - BMA

Statement from BMA chief officers.

https://www.bma.org.uk/news-and-opinion/bma-statement-on-speciality-training-application-bottlenecks

OP posts:
Thread gallery
70
CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 10:58

I have two DC in this situation one an F2 applying for a training position and the other is an ST2 applying for ST3.

justasking111 · 05/02/2025 11:02

CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 10:58

I have two DC in this situation one an F2 applying for a training position and the other is an ST2 applying for ST3.

It's heartbreaking when you know all the work they've put in over the years.

Truetoself · 05/02/2025 11:03

@Needmoresleep I am happy to support whatever campaign that you initiate.
Could ai just ask - is your DD able to get a training post in Australia? If not, will her experience there be considered as equivalent for the purpose of NHS training?

PlopSofa · 05/02/2025 11:11

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 10:47

Re PLAB, I noticed there was a plan initially to abandon it when the plans to introduce the MLA were announced.

Strangely, the idea to make all doctors, IMG or UK trained, do the same MLA exam was abandoned? Possibly due to some resistance?

Possibly due to potential benefits of keeping the 2 exam cohorts separate?

The new PLAB is now just MLA compliant. Not sure that's fair or as rigorous as the MLA that the UK trained grads are subjected to.
Some earlier posters did mention that these new IMGs were getting through on merit. How can merit be measured fairly with everyone sitting different exams or IMGs having exam exemptions or CREST forms signed off overseas?

I keep mentioning these issues because if we are going to make our young people sit tougher exams with more barriers for entry than new IMGs, it's unfair that they're unemployed at the end.

Could this be challengeable in court?

It feels discriminatory towards U.K. students that they have a higher burden to meet than IMGs for places.

I’m wondering what possible grounds there might be to make a case. Must put my thinking cap on 🤔

PlopSofa · 05/02/2025 11:12

CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 10:58

I have two DC in this situation one an F2 applying for a training position and the other is an ST2 applying for ST3.

How are they getting on?

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 11:26

We need to reinstate the Resident Labour Market Test and/or fix the weaknesses that lie within the UK points based immigration system fast!

About awareness within the NHS, I suspect there have been numerous discussions about this due to concerns from UK trained doctors. Yes, there's possibly some degree of conflicting interests. Is it okay if someone with significant influence over NHS recruitment is appointed to an Indian Advisory Board and is very in tune with the needs of doctors in India yet missing the fact that young doctors here are unemployed. It also seems that there is a lot of resistance to changes in the way that prioritises UK trained graduates in a way that is fair.

Here, I found this, about the scale of unemployment of Indian medical graduates online. An increasing lack of postgrad training opportunities after graduating from medical college is probably why the Indian Medical Association has formed strong links with the UK through that lobby

"Thousands of qualified doctors are unemployed as we have around 1.1 lakh doctors passing out of 706 medical colleges every year nationwide. On the other side, the creation of new posts is becoming a difficult task in the government sector"

“Unemployment in the health sector, especially in the field of physicians, is overlooked. We took the initiative to fix the issue. Initially, we have brought the hospitals from the Gulf countries. Work is underway to enlist at least 80,000 hospitals, including those from the UK, USA, and Canada. A separate domestic section has also been created,”

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 11:29

@Needmoresleep that last post of mine was in response to your post. Meant to quote you. Hopefully this issue is addressed urgently!!!

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 11:52

ShortSighted101 · 05/02/2025 07:47

Though I will add to that if we don't train our own doctors then they won't be able to apply will they?

How will they apply for a job as a GP if they weren't able to get into GP training?

Exactly!

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2025 12:09

Truetoself · 05/02/2025 11:03

@Needmoresleep I am happy to support whatever campaign that you initiate.
Could ai just ask - is your DD able to get a training post in Australia? If not, will her experience there be considered as equivalent for the purpose of NHS training?

I don't know. Probably not.

Only 9 months ago she bought a house meaning to build a career in a deanery . which traditionally has had major recruitment problems.

She now says that it is not worth even trying because of the numbers. She is positive about Australia as she is a positive person, and she follows rugby league. (Lots of discussion about places based on the strength of the local team.) I am hoping given the numbers that are now likely to be applying there that there will be a job for her.

She says that Australia will give her a chance to decide whether she likes medicine. She says it will be useful to work in a system that is less chaotic than the NHS. She is lucky in that she is academic and took a challenging intercalation in bio-medical engineering at Imperial (You essentially get dropped into the third year of an engineering degree with just a couple of pre-sessional courses in maths and electronics.). She then worked in a research lab as her elective. If prospects in Australia are limited and there are still no jobs in the NHS she can switch to engineering. We may have to help her take an MEng though she thinks she can get a job without. Someone I met recently who runs a bio-tech manufacturing firm suggested she look at Galway. Massive inward investment. It was already on her agenda.

In short, she is on Plan B, with a Plan C in her back pocket.

Stealth boasting maybe, but if hard working and able young doctors like her have no chance, who does?

OP posts:
CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 12:14

PlopSofa · 05/02/2025 11:12

How are they getting on?

Both are waiting to hear if they have an interview.

ST2 has already passed his membership exams first time which are difficult so I am so angry to hear that some international graduates are exempt from these exams. DC studied while working full time. Exams are around 1k to take.

Both have 100k in student debt and could be unemployed in August.

How has this happened? I would have loved to practice in US to gain experience and come back to the UK. Sensibly it is nearly impossible to do that as US protect their own medical graduates.

CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 12:19

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2025 12:09

I don't know. Probably not.

Only 9 months ago she bought a house meaning to build a career in a deanery . which traditionally has had major recruitment problems.

She now says that it is not worth even trying because of the numbers. She is positive about Australia as she is a positive person, and she follows rugby league. (Lots of discussion about places based on the strength of the local team.) I am hoping given the numbers that are now likely to be applying there that there will be a job for her.

She says that Australia will give her a chance to decide whether she likes medicine. She says it will be useful to work in a system that is less chaotic than the NHS. She is lucky in that she is academic and took a challenging intercalation in bio-medical engineering at Imperial (You essentially get dropped into the third year of an engineering degree with just a couple of pre-sessional courses in maths and electronics.). She then worked in a research lab as her elective. If prospects in Australia are limited and there are still no jobs in the NHS she can switch to engineering. We may have to help her take an MEng though she thinks she can get a job without. Someone I met recently who runs a bio-tech manufacturing firm suggested she look at Galway. Massive inward investment. It was already on her agenda.

In short, she is on Plan B, with a Plan C in her back pocket.

Stealth boasting maybe, but if hard working and able young doctors like her have no chance, who does?

Not sure what specialty your DC want to go into but would be a good idea to check before signs up to go to Oz. It used to be that you cannot go into some training programs if you had done too much work in the specialty. I think it was over 18 month or 2 years but that may have gone a long while ago.

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2025 12:33

I doubt that they can impose this now. Training is so competitive that many applicants will need several goes.

OP posts:
CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 12:37

Sorry I meant for example if I did 2 years as O&G staff grade it would stop me from applying for training post in O&G. It was quite a while ago ...

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2025 13:02

CherubEarrings

I have just seen your post.

Tough. If local graduates are good enough to get a staff grade post (assuming that is what they call F3) You would probably need more than one go to pass the exam well enough, and enough time to collect research and other points, to get enough points for interview.

DDs plan, which was not unusual, was to get F1/F2 out of the way then find an F3 in the right area. Sit the exams that autumn, probably not get enough to pass, then to sit them again the following year when she had more experience.

Will they impose the same restrictions on applicants from overseas? They will be more difficult to police.

Its tough. My cousin's DD and her fiancé went to live with them when they were applying so they could really focus on work and study. Having mum and dad cook etc made things easier. This was for GP training.

OP posts:
CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 13:08

Sorry probably crossed wires but it is another aspect to consider when they apply for F3/F4. As could stop you applying for some training programs if get too much experience in one specialty.

It is such a mess...

Needmoresleep · 05/02/2025 13:20

Most of this year's cohort will not get that far.

However worth knowing. DDs current aim is to study for UK exams when in Australia. Ie use Australia as an F3. Her thoughts are still evolving. She will need to be focussed. Hard though to keep motivated when it all seems against you.

She also may not get much choice. I cannot believe that Australia can absorb all the UK F2s that are planning to go there.

OP posts:
mumsneedwine · 05/02/2025 13:38

@CherubEarrings if you do more than 2 years you then apply straight to training as an ST3.

Krampers · 05/02/2025 13:55

This has been going on for years however only in the competitive specialties - higher surgical training, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery…
However now we are seeing competition for GP which is why this problem is even more apparent for current foundation doctors.
For me I got a run through in ophthal back in 2011 and had to move up to Birmingham for training. Now a consultant in the South. I had several publications, prizes, elective, F2 placement, Audits, presented at a few meetings. I think it is harder now with the additional verbal reasoning type exams and now extra number of people applying.

Krampers · 05/02/2025 14:05

The other issue is the lack of consultant posts due to poor workforce planning.
Many people finish training only to reach another bottle neck.
Departments such as my own have a limit to the number of consultants we can have despite the fact we have the patient population for at least double. This is why specialty numbers are kept low but I agree opening up opportunities to the whole world is not the solution. Simply have recruitment in two rounds - UK grads first and second round could perhaps include IMGs for under-filled posts.

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 14:10

PlopSofa · 05/02/2025 11:11

Could this be challengeable in court?

It feels discriminatory towards U.K. students that they have a higher burden to meet than IMGs for places.

I’m wondering what possible grounds there might be to make a case. Must put my thinking cap on 🤔

To add to issues with retaining the PLAB for IMGs (not qualifying for PLAB exemption) instead of making them do the MLA

I would question the robustness in the current online recruitment system to ensure fairness and equality for all applicants and also the interests of patients.

An online system should have checks and balances to safeguard against unintended consequences such as:
misuse (bots & spamming reported),
unfairness (different criteria for different applicants UK and abroad),
abuse (potential fraudulent applications if overseas personnel are signing off forms)
Oversight in the assesment of DEI (might be unfair for UK applicants if overseas applicants from wealthier backgrounds and private colleges are successful)

Politicians and anyone concerned seeking to redress the balance can perhaps look into this online NHS recruitment system and ask if any stage of the online recruitment system is introducing an unfair bias in favour of new IMGs that is disadvantaging UK trained graduates and UK IMGs? Changing the wording within the online application could perhaps help UK applicants get prioritised and not face unemployment.

Not sure exactly how the online system works but perhaps the first question could be whether you are applying from within the UK? Other countries limit access to overseas applicants to prioritise their medical graduates.

If it's a system of blind recruitment, that's initially very inclusive and well intended, but how are applications dealt with when there is a deluge from overseas?

How easily can you verify the information given there are so many medical qualifications and medical colleges overseas? Can our overburdened UK based NHS recruiters verify this information easily in the interests of patient safety and budget constraints?

Fix issues with the online recruitment system, reinstate the RLMT or address the weakness within the points based immigration system. If these changes are not done quickly, given there are so many unemployed medical graduates overseas and an increasing number of them are applying to the UK, the UK based doctors' plight is only going to get worse!

AliceInWonderland24 · 05/02/2025 14:11

Is this something Panorama could pick up if anyone has contacts at BBC

Krampers · 05/02/2025 14:12

And another thing - sorry it’s a subject I know a lot about as I manage the foundation Drs for my department. Opt for junior fellowships in competitive specialties which can really open up opportunities to research/Phd. There is also the option of CESR if Drs cannot secure a number and do not want to go abroad.

OneMorePiece · 05/02/2025 14:13

AliceInWonderland24 · 05/02/2025 14:11

Is this something Panorama could pick up if anyone has contacts at BBC

Yes, hopefully. Maybe Politics Live would be good too?

CherubEarrings · 05/02/2025 16:06

mumsneedwine · 05/02/2025 13:38

@CherubEarrings if you do more than 2 years you then apply straight to training as an ST3.

Thanks.

My example was trainees wanting to go into ST1.

One of my DC is going straight from ST2 to ST3 but is ready for that in terms of passed exams and knowledge gained in ST1/ST2.

Some trainees may want to start at ST1 as they do not feel confident to go straight to ST3. This can happen if they have not gained enough knowledge and experience when doing F3 and F4 but find themselves unable to get an ST1 post because of F3/F4 is deemed to have given them 2 years of experience.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.