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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To believe that zoos are unethical and should be abolished?

128 replies

YourHonestOchreBeaker · 30/01/2025 18:25

Keeping animals in cages for human entertainment seems cruel, no matter how ‘nice’ the enclosures are. AIBU to think that zoos have no place in a modern society?

OP posts:
frenchnoodle · 31/01/2025 12:38

rewilded · 31/01/2025 09:24

Zoos have to cull a number of healthy animals each year to keep numbers down. For example a zoo in Copenhagen euthanises 20 -30 animals per year. Zoos here in the UK do similar.

When Copenhagen Zoo put down a healthy male giraffe earlier this month, much of the world was horrified. But those in the know say it's quite normal - a fate that befalls thousands of zoo animals across Europe every year.
"This is not a thing that should go anywhere outside Denmark," says Copenhagen Zoo's Scientific Director Bengt Holst, responding to the barrage of critical news coverage. "We all know it's done every day."
Every day? It's not actually quite that often, but Holst says it's difficult to give a precise number.
"We do it when it's necessary," he says. "If I should take an average over 10 years - it could be probably something like 20, 30 [per year]." ( From BBC Article.)

And it makes fine food for the lions.

Horses too.

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 13:50

waitingforoneday · 31/01/2025 12:07

Have you been to Twycross and seen the size of the tiny paddock it keeps kangaroos in?

No. I went to Twycross many years ago and didn't like it.

We have the wildlife park in Doncaster so I don't go to any other zoos.

HunterAngel · 31/01/2025 14:22

Wingham wildlife park is populated by animals rescued from various places, the lions came from a German circus, tigers from a French zoo when the mother abandoned them and the chimpanzees came from American research labs. They’re part of a program reintroducing wild cats to Scotland. The John Aspinall parks (Howlets and Port Lympne) have had numerous successes with reintroduction of various species, most notably gorillas. The Smarden Big Cat sanctuary is part of a breeding program helping to preserve endangered species and work towards reintroduction.

Zoos are currently a necessary evil, without them many species would have died out before humans realised the damage we’re doing and, more importantly, cared enough to do something about it.

TizerorFizz · 31/01/2025 14:27

I do think there are too many zoos. I also think some animals live very happily in zoos. To a very good age. Our nearest is Whipsnade and it’s overall pretty good. I do agree the biggest challenge is large exotic cats and elephants and giraffes. We have been to Africa on many occasions to see them in the wild but I do appreciate most cannot do this.

Lions do not have a massive hunting area in the wild. They do not like coming into conflict with other lions. The lion population is much lower than it was 40 years ago so helping countries with research is very useful. We don’t need a lot of lions here. The tiger population in India is recovering from incredibly low levels but they are killed for “medicine”. Again as India has become wealthier, protection of tigers is better. Tourists want to see tigers.

We have visited our local zoo and seen hot house lizards, lots of penguins and lemurs. All of which do well in zoos. As do the residents in grassland replicating an African Savanah and various other mid sized animals. I would prefer fewer big cats in captivity but they don’t die of starvation and draught.

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 14:33

I have been to Whipsnade. It is huge. Does it still have the little train that runs through the fields where the animals are?

I think Doncaster (YWP) is getting closer to Whipsnade in size. You can walk through several enclosures - wallabies, lemurs and South American rodents. To see all the animals you have to walk for miles.

fluffyfurryfeatherythings · 31/01/2025 16:57

Zoos will never be big enough to give animals the quality of life they deserve.

Large land mammals need dozens of square miles and like to patrol their territories. A big field in Kent just doesn't cut it no matter how much people try and dress it up.

Then there are the wildcats - all in tiny enclosures - ocelots, cheetahs, lions and tigers. They haven't got enough room to even get to a running pace.
They can't hunt.
Zero natural behaviours.
They're not even allowed to choose their own mate.

Miserable

Don't even get me on to all the monkeys in zoos. They will never swing through a proper forest or jungle. It's fucking shameful that we do this.

The majority of these animals are not endangered - they are there for the entertainment of people. Full stop.

Cerealkiller4U · 31/01/2025 16:58

YourHonestOchreBeaker · 30/01/2025 18:25

Keeping animals in cages for human entertainment seems cruel, no matter how ‘nice’ the enclosures are. AIBU to think that zoos have no place in a modern society?

I agreed with you till my friend di a degree in zoology and it’s not that cut and dried.

politickie · 31/01/2025 17:19

Obviously no zoo is perfect, and we should always be striving to improve animal welfare and standards with zoos, but they serve an important role in conservation, rehabilitation, research, and education. Visitors should always research a zoo before visiting to ensure it meets their own ethical standards, but most of the major UK zoos are, to my knowledge, pretty solid on that front. Durrell Zoo in Jersey is a personal favourite, alongside Marwell Zoo in Hampshire for their conservation work with lesser-known species such as the Przewalski's horse.

I appreciate that there's a critique on zoos functioning as entertainment establishments, but for many this is simply the best way to fund their conservation work while encouraging and maintaining public interest in species conservation. On a basic human level, people are far more likely to take an active interest in the welfare and protection of a species if they can see it and connect with it somehow. There is also the element of education; people may not be aware of why some species are endangered and how to support their conservation, and zoo literature often has a strong focus on informing visitors of these issues.

I think it's absolutely understanding why anyone, on a personal level, would choose not to visit or fund a zoo based on their own ethics, but to abolish zoos would be devastating to conservation efforts and would likely contribute to the extinction of multiple species. The best thing we can do is raise standards, improve welfare and prioritise conservation.

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 17:20

Excellent post @politickie

Glitchymn1 · 31/01/2025 17:21

Zoos are vile. Too small- the end. It’s cruel and inhumane.

Safari parks- with injured animals who have been rehabilitated and wouldn’t survive in the wild then yes. They need more space though.

ObelixtheGaul · 31/01/2025 17:43

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 09:29

When did you last visit a zoo? In the UK animals are not kept in tiny cages.

Flamingo land last year, as a teaching assistant taking kids on a school trip. The size of the lion enclosure was pretty much a 'small cage' when you consider how much ground lions can cover in the wild. It had this sad dirty track where the lions paced round and round in a tiny circle.

It was utterly depressing, to be honest. The meerkats were in an enclosure the size of my living room,which I assure you is not huge, right next to the kids' play park.

The poor flamingoes were in a filthy pond.

The lemurs were better off, at least, in a wide open space, but generally I was shocked there were still zoos like this in the UK . They even had a performing seal show, something I've not seen since the eighties and thought was a thing of the past.

fluffyfurryfeatherythings · 31/01/2025 17:53

'' people are far more likely to take an active interest in the welfare and protection of a species if they can see it ''

Can you share a link to the research on this please @politickie ?

fluffyfurryfeatherythings · 31/01/2025 17:58

ObelixtheGaul · 31/01/2025 17:43

Flamingo land last year, as a teaching assistant taking kids on a school trip. The size of the lion enclosure was pretty much a 'small cage' when you consider how much ground lions can cover in the wild. It had this sad dirty track where the lions paced round and round in a tiny circle.

It was utterly depressing, to be honest. The meerkats were in an enclosure the size of my living room,which I assure you is not huge, right next to the kids' play park.

The poor flamingoes were in a filthy pond.

The lemurs were better off, at least, in a wide open space, but generally I was shocked there were still zoos like this in the UK . They even had a performing seal show, something I've not seen since the eighties and thought was a thing of the past.

Meercats have been mercilessly used to entertain children in zoos since that nature programme made them famous.

Poor buggers should have a huge territory - confined to a few square metres so kids can oggle at them close up all day.

There is no justification for it.

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 18:03

ObelixtheGaul · 31/01/2025 17:43

Flamingo land last year, as a teaching assistant taking kids on a school trip. The size of the lion enclosure was pretty much a 'small cage' when you consider how much ground lions can cover in the wild. It had this sad dirty track where the lions paced round and round in a tiny circle.

It was utterly depressing, to be honest. The meerkats were in an enclosure the size of my living room,which I assure you is not huge, right next to the kids' play park.

The poor flamingoes were in a filthy pond.

The lemurs were better off, at least, in a wide open space, but generally I was shocked there were still zoos like this in the UK . They even had a performing seal show, something I've not seen since the eighties and thought was a thing of the past.

That does sound grim. Not all zoos are like that.
At my local zoo the lions have 7 acres, which is a lot better than the small cages they were rescued from.

redboxer321 · 31/01/2025 18:08

At my local zoo the lions have 7 acres, which is a lot better than the small cages they were rescued from.

You've already made this point and nobody is disagreeing with it.

Cappuccinowithonesugarplease · 31/01/2025 18:24

I don't like seeing animals in cages but I don't think these kinds of zoos exist any more?
Anyway fwiw the San Diego wild animal park puts a lot of them to shame.

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 18:24

redboxer321 · 31/01/2025 18:08

At my local zoo the lions have 7 acres, which is a lot better than the small cages they were rescued from.

You've already made this point and nobody is disagreeing with it.

I don't mind making it again. Not everyone reads all the posts and when posters insist that all animals are kept in small cages I like to let them know that this isn't always the case.

redboxer321 · 31/01/2025 18:26

I'm not sure posters have insisted that all animals are kept in small cages

Couldbysunny · 31/01/2025 18:34

They raise money to care for the animals they have in them..
Ideally we should have some kind of state funding to protect endangered species and educated kids about animals.. but we aren't really there yet as a society. So zoos bridge the gap. Many animals in zoos are facing extinction. Them being on display in the zoo helps educate people and raise money for conservation efforts.
Obviously there needsto be regulations that ensure the highest standard of care for these animals.
Zoos, in the UK at least.. aren't like they were in the past.
Yes I feel sorry for the animals in zoos. But I have taken my children to the zoo as its a great experience for them to learn about and hopefully care about our environment and the natural world.
I feel sad for the animals but I know many wouldn't survive in the wild anyway.

I've seen some shocking zoos abroad though. My parents took me to some as a kid and they were horrific.
I remember going to a water park in tenerife and they had these really sad looking sharks in a plain tank round the water slide. Really cramped in. They looked so pathetic. Things like that definitely shouldn't be allowed.
And killer whale shows etc..
Any animals on display must not have been captured in the wild unless completely necessary for their survival.

ObelixtheGaul · 31/01/2025 18:41

RampantIvy · 31/01/2025 18:24

I don't mind making it again. Not everyone reads all the posts and when posters insist that all animals are kept in small cages I like to let them know that this isn't always the case.

Oh, yes, I don't doubt that. Some will be better than others. Interestingly, the kids weren't that interested, although they did enjoy the talk given by keepers at the end. Flamingo land has rides and the kids were gutted we weren't doing the rides. I do believe the animals aren't the draw they once were, and a lot of places have to offer theme park experiences now. Zoos (and even safari parks) aren't as prolific now as they were and many offer rides now.

As I kid, I only remember going to Paignton zoo once with school and Windsor Safari Park once with parents. Windsor Safari Park is now Legoland.

CindereIIa · 31/01/2025 18:48

YANBU. I despise the whole concept of them. They need to be abolished, and the focus on animals who need help getting re-established/better-populated be done in the wild.

I would much rather see animals in the wild, or on an non-intrusive nature documentary.

politickie · 31/01/2025 18:56

fluffyfurryfeatherythings · 31/01/2025 17:53

'' people are far more likely to take an active interest in the welfare and protection of a species if they can see it ''

Can you share a link to the research on this please @politickie ?

Here are some of the journals I found most useful in looking at this subject! Some investigate the specific question of whether or not exposure to a species increases interest in welfare and others cover some of the surrounding context, such as how zoos communicate conservation goals with visitors and the popularity of charismatic species.

I've tried to stick to texts which should be available to read without an academic library or journal membership, since I don't know what access you may or not have, but there's a few I didn't want to leave out despite the accessibility issue. I hope these journals satisfy.

Zoos and animated animals increase public interest in and support for threatened animals
Fukano, Tanaka, & Soga

Debut of an endangered bird in zoos raises public interest, awareness and conservation knowledge of the species
Fukano, Soga, Fukuda, Takahashi, Koyoma, Arakawa, Miyano, Akiba, & Horiguchi

Public Support for Biodiversity After a Zoo Visit: Environmental Concern, Conservation Knowledge, and Self-Efficacy
Clayton, Prévot, Germain, & Saint-Jalme

Conservation learning in wildlife tourism settings: lessons from research in zoos and aquariums
Ballantyne, Packer, Hughes, & Dierking

Charismatic Species and Beyond: How Cultural Schemas and Organisational Routines shape Conservation
Krause & Robinson

Identifying factors influencing attitudes towards species conservation – a transnational study in the context of zoos
Kleepsies, Montes, Álvarez, Bambach, Gricar, Wenkel, & Dierkes

(and an interpretation and summary of the previous journal: Zoos can increase wildlife conservation attitudes in visitors)

Zoos can increase wildlife conservation attitudes in visitors | eePRO

https://eepro.naaee.org/research/eeresearch/zoos-can-increase-wildlife-conservation-attitudes-visitors#:~:text=Overall%2C%20the%20researchers%20concluded%20that,positive%20attitudes%20around%20species%20conservation.

Wordsmithery · 31/01/2025 19:12

frenchnoodle · 30/01/2025 18:29

Monkey world Ape rescue center would disagree.

You might want to educate yourself on their work.

Edited

Monkey world is NOT a zoo. OP is talking about the traditional zoo model where you have your regulation giraffes, zebras, big cats, polar bears etc. that will never be released.
Zoos talk about their rehabilitation and reintroduction programmes but really these are generally minimal. Certainly not enough to justify keeping animals in abysmal, unnatural conditions.
I agree with OP. There is no place for traditional zoos in modern society.

waitingforoneday · 31/01/2025 20:15

redboxer321 · 31/01/2025 18:26

I'm not sure posters have insisted that all animals are kept in small cages

Indeed, but even large cages are still cages.

redboxer321 · 31/01/2025 20:48

They are @waitingforoneday
I was getting a bit frustrated because of course 7 acres is better than a small or even large cage for a lion but while I don't really know over what sort of land areas lions live in, 7 acres doesn't sound much to me.
Better is not good enough.
And it is not only about land area either. They are still captive, they still have people gawping at them, they still don't get to hunt, they and their environment are still controlled by human beings.
We need to try harder.

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