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Original poster

Hospital negligence at a "scandal" level - what to do?

44 replies

Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 10:15

I will try to keep this brief but want to give as much information as possible. I have name changed but a long time mumsnet user.

My brother was sectioned under the mental health act and taken to a mental health hospital in North London.

My brother was a flight risk having already escaped once and attempted to escape another - not at the same hospital.

The north London hospital was made aware of this by myself and my mother but should be able to access this on his notes too.

This is a high security hospital where many patients are extremely unwell, vulnerable and a threat to themselves and others.

On day 2 of being hospitalized he was walked to the front door accompanied by 2 nurses/ members of staff. One told my brother that many people escape this hospital and never come back. He then walked him over to the door and turned around allowing my brother to run off.

My brother had no reason to be near the front door. His ward was nowhere near here and he has internal courtyards for fresh air / smoking if needed.

The staff claim he was signed off to go outside to the front to smoke by the hospital consultant.

Why taking someone to a front / unsecured carpark to smoke as opposed to the internal secured courtyard they have use of, is the preference, I have yet to understand.

Now here is where the large-scale negligence comes in.

Because my brother escaped, we contacted the police missing persons unit and reported him as missing.

We had the most amazing PC call us back and after me expressing my concerns regarding his escape the police officer mentioned that this is a DAILY occurrence!

They get calls almost daily regarding this hospital and patients escaping. Always in the same way.

The consultant signs the patients off to smoke at the front and patients are allowed to WALK off. Not run, WALK. No one intervenes. No one stops them.

When the police request CCTV footage. The cameras either weren't working or show absolute negligence where patients simply walk off with either no staff standing next to them or no one bothering to stop them. No staff follow them or attempt to stop them from leaving. This specific officer has been raising concerns with this hospital for over 2 YEARS.

Because the officer has to go via the official channels all that ever happens is a liaison person / team acting as an intermediary between the police and the hospital recommending changes to be made which never come to fruition.

She also mentioned that they take seriously unwell patients (think dangerously ill where they could pose a threat to society/ attack someone) on day trips outside and again, allow them to walk off. When asked by police why they don't attempt to stop / retain them the excuse is always that they are dangerous individuals and they don't want to risk being attacked.

To add to this, after a patient escapes, they also never follow any of the procedures they are supposed to follow, such as filling in a 137 form to allow the police to arrest the patient and bring them back to the hospital. Without this the police can't help should the patient return home.

Now AIBU to suggest this is absolute negligence on a mass scale and that the consultant and nurses involved should be stricken off!?

I have made an official complaint but any advice as so where else to take this would be much appreciated!

I will be speaking to the local MPs too but this cannot be allowed to continue.

The police officer I spoke to, who is sick of how these vulnerable people are being treated recommended I request a freedom of information act to show many patients have escaped over the last year, which I've done.

Some patients in this hospital are so unwell that they would not be able to advocate for themselves. I think this is why they have been getting away with gross negligence for such a long time.

To add to this, my brother claims his room was filthy. Bed sheets couldn't have been changed from the last patient as they had BLOOD on them!?

OP posts:
Kimmeridge · 27/01/2025 10:26

I work for the police and see this on a daily basis. Detained patients being allowed out for a smoke or for a time out then surprise surprise they don't come back

Staff watch them walk away through the car park with no attempt to stop them. I understand they don't want to put themselves at risk but I don't know how often they've been asked to keep eyes on the person so we can go and pick them up

Sometimes we see 2/3 people leave the hospital during one of our shifts. The hospital doesn't seem to have to take any responsibility

We've often commented on how much families must go through before a person is detained and they're probably relaxing and getting a good night sleep thinking their relative is safe when they're not .

It's a shocking system and unless we're both talking about the same hospital is clearly a wise spread issue

BusMumsHoliday · 27/01/2025 10:34

I'd strongly consider going to the press about this. Especially once/if you get an answer to your FoI.

I have a relative under section at the moment (not the same hospital). As the PP said, knowing he was there and not a danger to himself or others was a massive relief. I can't imagine the stress if he absconded.

I should say, the nursing staff on his ward have been amazing. I don't know how they do it. I hope your brother gets better soon.

ImBlindasabat · 27/01/2025 10:35

Go to a lawyer. You'll get no proper answers for the complaints and ombudsman system. I know because I am currently dealing with a complaint about my late mother's care. I am now at MP level because I can't get any coherent answers from them. The MP has taken it onwards but the office is so disorganised but they couldn't even manage to email me back to let me know what was going on. Thinking about this,disorganisation seems to be absolutely endemic and no amount of complaints seems to do anything really. So go to a lawyer

mumofoneAlonebutokay · 27/01/2025 10:42

Can you contact a journalist, op? I'm sorry about what you're having to deal with, wishing your brother peace and safety x

Catza · 27/01/2025 11:07

I used to work in a secure facility so I can help clear some things up. The internal courtyard is a no smoking zone so every time a patient needs to smoke, they need escort to the smoking area outside of the hospital. This is usually limited to a few times a day and someone would have carried out a risk assessment to allow this.
Staff are not allowed to intervene when some is attempting to absconding. Again, this is in hospital policy, we can't put ourselves at risk. It's not because we don't want to, we literally are not allowed. Also, physically preventing someone from leaving will constitute unauthorised restraint. All restraint has to be risk assessed and written into a care plan. I am not risking my safety and liberty (if your brother decides to sue me for putting hands on him) for near-minimum wage of an HCA.
Also, there are no unified notes. If you get detained in one trust, I bet top dollar the notes won't be accessible in another trust.

Not following a reporting procedure for absconding is something the trust can and should get into a lot of trouble for. But actually letting someone abscond on a smoking break is staff following policy and safety protocols.
I am also not clear how your brother could have exited the ward as there are typically double-locked doors operated by person on duty. So you exit the ward into a holding space, someone supervises you signing out and only then they manually unlock the outside door.

Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:11

Kimmeridge · 27/01/2025 10:26

I work for the police and see this on a daily basis. Detained patients being allowed out for a smoke or for a time out then surprise surprise they don't come back

Staff watch them walk away through the car park with no attempt to stop them. I understand they don't want to put themselves at risk but I don't know how often they've been asked to keep eyes on the person so we can go and pick them up

Sometimes we see 2/3 people leave the hospital during one of our shifts. The hospital doesn't seem to have to take any responsibility

We've often commented on how much families must go through before a person is detained and they're probably relaxing and getting a good night sleep thinking their relative is safe when they're not .

It's a shocking system and unless we're both talking about the same hospital is clearly a wise spread issue

Thank you for your input.

But why let them out? Where my brother was staying, patients have access to internal courtyards where they could smoke. These are walled internal gardens where no one could get out.

The fact that the nurse also planted the seed in his head for him to leave and purposely turned around encouraging him to do so is mind boggling at the least!

He told him "many patients escape from here and never come back". Why?

Aside from the odd case here and there, I always though of medical negligence as "accidents" that should have been avoided but not deliberate acts of malice.

This is purposeful negligence. This is staff encouraging patients to escape.

OP posts:
Kimmeridge · 27/01/2025 11:20

Its beyond me why detained patients are allowed any kind of time out at all. Smokers also just go to the front of the hospital. One absconded last year because he was let out unaccompanied because it was raining!!

Something needs to be done. The hospitals and staff need to be more accountable

I honestly hate to think how many hours we spend looking for people who've left because of what amounts to bad hospital practise.

Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:23

Catza · 27/01/2025 11:07

I used to work in a secure facility so I can help clear some things up. The internal courtyard is a no smoking zone so every time a patient needs to smoke, they need escort to the smoking area outside of the hospital. This is usually limited to a few times a day and someone would have carried out a risk assessment to allow this.
Staff are not allowed to intervene when some is attempting to absconding. Again, this is in hospital policy, we can't put ourselves at risk. It's not because we don't want to, we literally are not allowed. Also, physically preventing someone from leaving will constitute unauthorised restraint. All restraint has to be risk assessed and written into a care plan. I am not risking my safety and liberty (if your brother decides to sue me for putting hands on him) for near-minimum wage of an HCA.
Also, there are no unified notes. If you get detained in one trust, I bet top dollar the notes won't be accessible in another trust.

Not following a reporting procedure for absconding is something the trust can and should get into a lot of trouble for. But actually letting someone abscond on a smoking break is staff following policy and safety protocols.
I am also not clear how your brother could have exited the ward as there are typically double-locked doors operated by person on duty. So you exit the ward into a holding space, someone supervises you signing out and only then they manually unlock the outside door.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

They have multiple internal courtyards and have been told to make provision for smoking patients multiple times over course of YEARS. They have taken no action to adress this.

It would be easy for one these courtyards to be a smoking space (it is external!).

The front door at this facility is open. There are numerous check points between where my brother was staying and this front door.

He is not a regular smoker, they were told this. He used this as an excuse to escape the first time and has used it again. They were aware.

We were assured he would only be allowed to use the internal courtyards.

Without going into too much detail, my brother is not a danger to himself or the general public but many of the other patients are.

The hospital staff have done nothing to ensure his return. They have not carried out any checks calling family members/ known friends. They have not filled out a section 135. They have been rude and condescending.

My brother escaped 5 days ago. Despite calling multiple times to speak to the nurse in charge / consultant to understand the situation they have NOT yet called back.

The nurse also PURPOSELY planted the "escape" seed in my brother's mind.

OP posts:
MissyB1 · 27/01/2025 11:31

Sounds horrendous OP, I'm so sorry your poor brother, you, and your family are being put through this. It's not good enough for staff to knowingly put patients in a risky / dangerous situation then wash their hands of any responsibility.
I would gather as much information and evidence as possible, then go to the press.

Catza · 27/01/2025 11:49

Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:23

I wholeheartedly disagree.

They have multiple internal courtyards and have been told to make provision for smoking patients multiple times over course of YEARS. They have taken no action to adress this.

It would be easy for one these courtyards to be a smoking space (it is external!).

The front door at this facility is open. There are numerous check points between where my brother was staying and this front door.

He is not a regular smoker, they were told this. He used this as an excuse to escape the first time and has used it again. They were aware.

We were assured he would only be allowed to use the internal courtyards.

Without going into too much detail, my brother is not a danger to himself or the general public but many of the other patients are.

The hospital staff have done nothing to ensure his return. They have not carried out any checks calling family members/ known friends. They have not filled out a section 135. They have been rude and condescending.

My brother escaped 5 days ago. Despite calling multiple times to speak to the nurse in charge / consultant to understand the situation they have NOT yet called back.

The nurse also PURPOSELY planted the "escape" seed in my brother's mind.

Show quote history

The government directive is that hospitals have to become smoke-free sites. Even if the courtyard is secure it cannot be used for smoking on a smoke-free hospital site. NHS staff cannot facilitate smoking in a place which is supposed to promote health. So the only choice is to take patients completely off site or provide them with nicotine patches when their risks cannot be managed off hospital site.
Granted, the risk assessment and documentation in this hospital needs a lot of work. But you cannot expect them to create nurturing environment for smokers when the government is very clear on their push towards smoke-free NHS. I think smoking in courtyard would solve a lot of behavioural and staffing problems on wards but what you and I think about it doesn't matter. It's a wider policy that counts.

Hoover2025 · 27/01/2025 11:53

I was sectioned once upon a time. Smoker.

Techincally the internal courtyards are non smoking as all of nhs is no smoking. Obviously that doesn’t work so I did smoke in the internal and everyone turned a blind eye.

I was eventually allowed out the front but the front was bloody scary - absolutely insane men talking all kinds of triggering nonsense. Had a relapse event where I went into panic mode. Then got accused of smoking weed and said I would be kicked off the ward!

At this stage I wanted to leave anyway so no skin off my nose. But I absolutely didn’t smoke any weed. It was all very bizarre.

I went back to smoking in the garden after that.

Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:56

Catza · 27/01/2025 11:49

The government directive is that hospitals have to become smoke-free sites. Even if the courtyard is secure it cannot be used for smoking on a smoke-free hospital site. NHS staff cannot facilitate smoking in a place which is supposed to promote health. So the only choice is to take patients completely off site or provide them with nicotine patches when their risks cannot be managed off hospital site.
Granted, the risk assessment and documentation in this hospital needs a lot of work. But you cannot expect them to create nurturing environment for smokers when the government is very clear on their push towards smoke-free NHS. I think smoking in courtyard would solve a lot of behavioural and staffing problems on wards but what you and I think about it doesn't matter. It's a wider policy that counts.

Show quote history

In which case, simply don't allow them to smoke.

However the policy for a general hospital and a mental health hospital should not and cannot be the same.

When you have vulnerable members of society that are absconding putting themselves and others at risk due to, as you claim, an NHS policy, surely there is a huge problem here with an easy fix.

Regular hospital patients are not at risk of escaping nor are there any knock on effects if they do chose to leave.

These are sectioned patients that are absconding DAILY.

OP posts:
Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:58

Hoover2025 · 27/01/2025 11:53

I was sectioned once upon a time. Smoker.

Techincally the internal courtyards are non smoking as all of nhs is no smoking. Obviously that doesn’t work so I did smoke in the internal and everyone turned a blind eye.

I was eventually allowed out the front but the front was bloody scary - absolutely insane men talking all kinds of triggering nonsense. Had a relapse event where I went into panic mode. Then got accused of smoking weed and said I would be kicked off the ward!

At this stage I wanted to leave anyway so no skin off my nose. But I absolutely didn’t smoke any weed. It was all very bizarre.

I went back to smoking in the garden after that.

Sorry to hear this. It's absolutely crazy that institutions that are meant to help some of the most vulnerable members of society are in fact putting them at risk and others in the vicinity too.

OP posts:
Namechangeagain80 · 27/01/2025 12:01

YANBU.

My sister has been sectioned a couple of times and once just walked out of the supposedly secure hospital. Was missing for a few hours. Her DH is a police officer and he has also said that it is a regular occurrence.

Aside from that, the 'treatment' offered was appalling. Basically kept them on such strong drugs that they were completely out of it, nothing else that would actually make a difference, eg therapy, offered. I actually think their raison d'être is literally just to keep patients from harming themselves or others (except they obviously can't manage this either).

Soontobe60 · 27/01/2025 12:04

The fact that the nurse also planted the seed in his head for him to leave and purposely turned around encouraging him to do so is mind boggling at the least!
He told him "many patients escape from here and never come back". Why?
How do you know this is what happened?

stayathomegardener · 27/01/2025 12:05

Can you start a petition? I would sign.

This is shocking and I had no idea.

Mischance · 27/01/2025 12:06

Contact the Care Quality Commission: https://www.cqc.org.uk/

Also the local MP.

Care Quality Commission

https://www.cqc.org.uk

Wingedharpy · 27/01/2025 12:19

Where is your brother now?

Kimmeridge · 27/01/2025 12:23

These are sectioned patients that are absconding DAILY

And some abscond on a regular basis. We have one 'detained' patient who is reported missing several times a week. We don't go to the hospital, we go to the nearby pub where hell be having a pint and take him back - again.

Ponderingwindow · 27/01/2025 12:50

I would not focus on the detail about the staff member placing the idea into your brothers head. Even if it happened, you have no proof. Since your brother is a danger to himself during this time, he won’t be considered a reliable narrator.

you also can’t expect courtyards to be used for smoking, exposing staff and other patients to second-hand smoke. This is especially true if those courtyards have windows that open.

I would focus on the fact that they allow sectioned patients to be escorted out at all for something as trivial as smoking. Do they allow other patients with the same types of holds to just go for a walk outside? Can they step out for a coffee? Of course not. They are in a psychiatric ward against their will.

Hoover2025 · 27/01/2025 12:58

Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 11:58

Sorry to hear this. It's absolutely crazy that institutions that are meant to help some of the most vulnerable members of society are in fact putting them at risk and others in the vicinity too.

Show quote history

They arguable saved my life so I can’t be too downtrodden about them. But I have to be honest I have never felt so unsafe in my life. Which is ironic considering I was in a hospital.

I remember being really ill feeling like a low blood sugar crash or thinking maybe I caught something from the rats all over the garden. Just literally felt like I was going to die. So ill. Couldn’t stand (too weak), couldnt sit or lie because medication made me restless. I can count on one hand the amount of times I have been to a & e and it’s never been for feeling awful. More cuts or breaks visits. If at home though I would have gone.

I went to the doctors office. They took my blood pressure and said I was fine. Sent me back to my room.

Thankfully I was fine when I woke up the next day but if I had had sepsis I’m certain I would have died there in my sleep.

I also saw a girl attack another one. She dislocated her shoulder. They didn’t send anyone to put it back for 5 hours.

It is scary what goes on in these places. I hope your brother stays safe and recovers.

Keep on top of them.

Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 13:08

Soontobe60 · 27/01/2025 12:04

The fact that the nurse also planted the seed in his head for him to leave and purposely turned around encouraging him to do so is mind boggling at the least!
He told him "many patients escape from here and never come back". Why?
How do you know this is what happened?

Because when he escaped he came home to my mother's house as we assumed he would and told us so.

He is well enough to be coherent although I know it's one person's word vs another. This will be disputed and he won't be believed. I believe him as does the police office I spoke to.

People are sectioned for various different reasons and he is coherent. I don't want to go into too much detail on this.

OP posts:
Original poster
Highgatehospital · 27/01/2025 13:11

Ponderingwindow · 27/01/2025 12:50

I would not focus on the detail about the staff member placing the idea into your brothers head. Even if it happened, you have no proof. Since your brother is a danger to himself during this time, he won’t be considered a reliable narrator.

you also can’t expect courtyards to be used for smoking, exposing staff and other patients to second-hand smoke. This is especially true if those courtyards have windows that open.

I would focus on the fact that they allow sectioned patients to be escorted out at all for something as trivial as smoking. Do they allow other patients with the same types of holds to just go for a walk outside? Can they step out for a coffee? Of course not. They are in a psychiatric ward against their will.

Fully agree that there should just be a no smoking ban full stop if it is causing this many issues.

However there is more that one courtyard / garden. They could simply allocate one for smokers if they chose to go down this route.

OP posts:
TheEllisGreyMethod · 27/01/2025 13:30

Consider going to the press. Honestly.