To expect schools aim for higher than average?

[Couldntthinkofadecentname]

Obviously I know how averages work and there’ll be those above and below but my point is that rather than aim for national average, surely they should be aiming for higher?

The reason this is currently bugging me is due to my two daughters school. The one daughter is just above average so spends most lessons waiting for those less able. The other daughter is below average, not quite EHCP level but enough that last year she had a TA next to her. They’ve removed this because she’s made ‘exponential progress compared to all others in the class and is NEARLY average’

So my question is surely we shouldn’t be facing glass ceilings already?! (They’re 7&8)

Of course it would be amazing if schools were able to adapt lessons and have the resources to personally assist every single child in the aim for them all to be “above average”. But in a class of 30 with a teacher and maybe a TA with children ranging from genius level to can barely read, with parents who are super engaged to do not give a fuck, with families from affluent areas to those who can’t afford for their children to eat properly - it’s impossible. Surely you see this?

On the whole schools / teachers have to pitch to the average child.

If you genuinely want a personalised approach unfortunately you will have to pay for it. Pay for smaller class sizes / more teachers / better resources.

On a practical note you can ask for extra work for the child above average and help the one below at home. Success at school is a mixture of work done in school and work done at home.

The more able one should be getting extension work where needed. Ask the teacher.

Your less able no longer needs extra TA support, they have limited funds and TA support will be focused on those struggling most.

I don’t know other areas of the UK, but the English model focuses on value added, so a school aiming for average would quickly fall down the league tables.

In an ideal world of schools of course that would happen and in many it does, but as a Secondary school teacher I regularly taught children with a reading age of 8 and below. Significant work has to go in just to get them to a stage where they can even access the GCSE syllabus at all and for many a grade 1, 2 or 3 was a achievement.

On the other hand, my own DD is Twice Exceptional (autistic and highly gifted) and I have never really had an issue with getting her schools to challenge her.Taken out for small group work to push the higher skills needed for the higher grades. After school groups for what was once known as 'Gifted and Talented' students.

Perhaps it's a case of your DDs being in the middle 95-110 range so don't get the intervention aimed at the higher and lower attainers opposed to it not existing. Without an EHCP access to a TA nowadays is unlikely. If you think she needs one you can apply yourself

Think about how the really high achieving kids feel. I agree with you, it's stupid but streaming in primary is frowned upon. If it's 3 form entry, why not split into 3 groups based on ability rather than have 3 classes with such a massive range that nobody gets what they need? It's pretty much impossible to teach a class like that. You have some kids in a year 5 or 6 class who can't read/write/speak English or do anything independently up to some that could probably sit GCSE already.

Double posted 🤷🏻‍♂️

Primary schools are often mixed ability classes.

If you have one daughter who is just above average the teaching should be aimed pretty much at her. If the whole class is below average and so she is very good for her class ask for extensions or challenge work.

Secondaries mostly set by ability so students are taught at a pace they can cope with.

It is hard to tailor the lessons, but not impossible. My daughters class of 22, is split into 4 ability groups, known by colours so it's not so obvious to the children who is highest/lowest. They have a teacher and 2 TA's, who work with 3 of the 4 groups on levels appropriate ability in maths, writing and reading. 4th group has 'quiet choosing time' and then they rotate. The progress is extraordinary, my youngest, who was expected to struggle due to having brain damage and summer born, is now working a year above ability in reading and maths.

It's quite ignorant to assume she's waiting for the less able during most of her lesson time. Learning isn't linear and she will need to practise to actually retain things and develop.

You obviously don't know how averages work if you think everyone should be trying to be above. I think the intelligent Michael Gove once had the same bright idea.

And I'd stop worrying about national average. You have no idea what the average even is in her class. And the chances are: it's her!

A class of 22 with a teacher and 2 TAs is far from the norm. This is impossible to achieve in a class of 30+ with just a teacher.

They aim as high as they can within funding constraints.

My dc has intervention because they are above average, schools should aim to differentiate.

Exactly. But the input and whole class work isn't irrelevant to the higher achieving as OP seems to think. Scaffolding for weaker children doesn't take time away from the stronger in the moment (it bloody does in teachers' own free time...) And the independent work should be something all children do to their own ability level. I don't see how the higher ability can possibly be the ones at a disadvantage!

So the school put in support that has worked to get your child up to average. She can now participate in the whole class work without the support. Yet you're complaining that she's not aiming any higher. Are you serious?

Of course they'll want her to improve more and more, and by staying on average her whole school career, she will still be making progress.

Speaking as a teacher, I can inform you that schools are much more 'one-size-fits-all' than any teacher would like to admit to parents- sorry.

Well at least your struggling DD got help - mine were always not bad enough there were worse in class to actually get help or if we wait they may catch up as they are summer born that was especially thrown at DS - so we had to do bulk of support work at home.

I think ideally there should be more differential teaching but some classes/schools that can be really hard with resources they have.

When I started teaching 15 years ago we did differentiate lessons so more able children were challenged. When the curriculum changed in 2014, the focus was on ‘mastery’ and keeping the class together so no one was left behind, and pushing capable children was frowned upon. Instead they should be stretched ‘sideways’ and given ‘rich problems’ to solve.

The last 7 years I’ve been in private education where we continued to stretch beyond current year group curriculum but I’m now back in state on supply and as far as I can see nothing is done to stretch the most capable. I had kids finish the task with 20 minutes to go and the next task was ‘help other people’. Unfortunately, if I as the teacher have failed to help a student understand something, it’s unlikely a 10 year old will do a better job, and the helper gets little out of explaining how to do something they could do with ease. This backs up what I’ve seen with my own very capable child in state education, she is just taught things she can already do and is bored.

its both an issue with funding/staffing and with the way the national curriculum is at present.

I agree. I was so eager to please until about year 4 but then switched off and became really naughty & disruptive because I was bored stiff. The boredom & frustration actually made me deeply unhappy. I had a brother 3 years older and since I was little had joined in with him and his work so I was already confident with what school were teaching.

Teaching how to tell the time or how to do column multiplication to kids who were confident in it (for example) just isn't doing anything for them. Totally agree a teacher can't teach 30 different lessons at once but that doesn't mean it's not awful for the kids that have to see it and their parents watching them waste hours every day not learning anything.

I fully support streaming because my mental health as a child rlly suffered from being ignored at school and told (quite literally once but often implied) to sit and wait for others to catch up.

I'm aware it's not a popular opinion but that's my experience & it isn't the responsibility of the more able children to give up their potential to help the less able. There should be appropriate streaming where possible so every child can be given the tools to reach their potential.

Speaking as a teacher- of course they should, I would hate for any child to not get the most out of my lessons. I will try targeted questioning, extension tasks and advice as a marker for the exam board, all so I can make sure that anyone (at any level) who can achieve higher, has the vehicle to do so.

Speaking as a human being- I'm trying my flipping best but there are 32 of them in there. At any one time, 10 of them are just looking for an opportunity to chat, turn around, throw a pencil at a friend etc. so I need to keep my eye on them. I also have 3-7 of them which an EHCP so I need to keep an eye on making sure they have their adaptations. I also have 4 of them who aren't EHCP but have some SEND needs so I need to keep an eye on them, they may need some extra help. I've got 2 very quiet ones, they're very capable but rarely ask for help so I need to go over and keep an eye on any worries they have. Also, I've got 1 who was escorted in half way through the lesson due to truanting, so I need to keep an eye on her to make sure she knows what we're doing. Then, just to add to the fun, there's a wasp in the room or a detention slip arrives at the door, or (god forbid) it's started snowing. Now I need to keep an eye to ensure all hell doesn't break loose.
I've only got 2 eyes and they're shattered! I promise that we're trying our best.

Hear hear

I think schools would argue that they’re not and would use language more like ‘on target’. But the same schools say they have ‘good’ or ‘outstanding’ behaviour and that a lie lol

Only in a few subjects.

If the input and whole class work is something a child could do in their sleep, then it is irrelevant to that higher ability child. This genuinely does happen, particularly in maths, where the spiral curriculum can be too tightly spiralled for some children. Both of my DDs have been allowed to skip this bit of some maths lessons as their teachers have understood this.

Having seen my younger DD be graded as "at expected level, school's job done", when she is very able but was putting in no effort and was very bored, made me wonder about how many children are like this but without engaged parents to advocate for them.

Sorry posted and ran!

For background I was a teacher but left in 2013 which makes huge sense to what @hodgepodge was saying.
The work is much easier than I was teaching the same age groups just over a decade ago, also there is less differentiation.

We aimed for higher than average that way children who struggled were more likely to hit the average and those above weren’t held back.
Dd1 is top of her class and frankly bored to tears as once she’s done there’s no extension (another thing that we were expected to plan for?) and yes I have asked, but she’s ’fine and achieving expectations’
DD2 has done tons of extra at home which explains the improvement, it’s just frustrating that at school the work hasn’t changed to mimic this. She was well below (think CVC at 7) and is still not hitting the targets. I don’t expect a TA (I didn’t then) but the lack of concern is a worry.

Tbh I think it’s the whole ‘mastery’ change in curriculum. They’ve removed the differentiation. When I was teaching we were expected to know each kid and plan accordingly (28/30 per class without TA, before someone says no resources etc). I taught in three different schools and the head expected the same in each. I guess times change, and this is one of them.

Yes of course you are right.
But most classes with 30 children it isn't an option to go above average.
It's tbh 'forget about it' for the smart kids. They are more less on their own unless you are lucky with a state grammar school place at 11 or can pay for a public school.