My brother ignores my children

[Mrsjohnsmith]

He’s never been kid-friendly, never wanted to hold my two kids or play with them, that’s fine and I get that some people just don’t like kids (although he does have his own toddler). It didn’t matter when my kids were babies and toddlers and didn’t notice. Now however they’re 8 and 10, and he doesn’t speak to them, and I’m getting increasingly pissed off that it’s rude.

He lives further away so doesn’t see us often. When he does come it’ll be a weekend overnight visit. He says hello and goodbye to them, but other than that doesn’t speak a word to them. Doesn’t ask them questions, comment on things they do, just acts like they’re not there. They in turn mostly ignore him because they’ve learnt that he doesn’t want to engage with them. If they occasionally ask him to play, he’ll say a distracted “yes” and then wander off so he doesn’t have to actually go through with it.

I just feel like now they’re getting older, he’s a guest in their house and it’s really rude to just ignore their existence as far as possible…….i also feel like I’m teaching my kids that it’s ok for someone to come into your home not even use basic manners to ask how you are. AIBU and too precious here, or is it rude for him to ignore them as they’re actual people?!

Ps I also understand your wish to keep family relations going. That’s also really normal. Loads of posters on here always say if you don’t like it, don’t do it, and that’s true up to a point but it’s a really normal thing to a)want family for yourself,, b) want family for your children and c) want to be part of a larger social grouping (basically family!). We are very centred on the individual in this country, which brings its own challenges

Does he have any interests? Is he like this with his partner?

Some real food for thought here, and I appreciate everyone sharing their perspectives.

Reading through has made me realise that I invite them out of obligation; his partner is a little chattier but not much, they’re both relatively introverted (no SEN) and have always been hard work to socialise with. I would love us to be different as a family, but people don’t tend to change. I’m a very open communicator thanks to DH and friends, so we’ve definitely grown up very differently and developed different skills. It’s also probably true that he was parented in a very hands-off manner, my parents are very very similar to him. I’ve never really put this together before.

I think going forward I’ll reduce contact and then organise a day out when we do have to meet, to reduce some of the impact. Also remember it’s not personal, and repeat this to the kids too.

My cousin is like this, she openly says she only finds her own kids interesting.

That’s her prerogative but it does mean that other family take a back seat with her kids too.

I would do the same as him, let him parent his own child and not get involved. Give your kids the attention so they don’t feel left out.

Send him off on a day trip with them, throw him in a the deep end. It might not be intentional on his part, he mightn’t have the know how to chat to little people.

You cannot tell your brother how to feel let alone go along with a suggestion that he takes your DC out. He is what he is. Possibly like your parents and not like you. As long as he and his wife and dc are happy, that’s fine! You are not obliged to be organising happy families. I realised you cannot force behaviour a long time ago, however much you are disappointed. So yes, reduce stays and just go for a day out.

I think there are some interesting points in here about what your brother can/can't change with the way he interacts. I wanted to add that, although of course it's not your responsibility, thinking of your young nephew here and the benefit he might get out of interacting with you and your family might be important.
I'm not saying that your brother and his wife are bad parents but you say they are both very quiet and potentially replicating 'hands off' parenting from his own childhood. Your nephew might really benefit from warm and loving 'hands on' interactions with your family. Just something to consider if you are planning to reduce contact.

My siblings are like this with my kids, despite me being a VERY active aunt to theirs when they were little. It's one of the main reasons I am very low contact with them now - they deserve better and I prioritise them and not some picture perfect idea of what extended family should be like. You can't control your brother's actions but you can take charge of how you respond, you'll be alot happier if you don't dwell on it, as sad as it is, and concentrate on making sure your kids know how much you love them and enjoy them. 😊 Stuff everyone else 😆

My brothers a bit like this, he barely speaks to my children and if he does it always feels a bit sneery.

It's weird because I make an absolute fuss over his children (significantly younger than mine), and he encourages our relationship.

I spend a fair bit of time with my SIL and the little ones, I don't really actively choose to spend time with my brother. He's a bit of a funny person!

It’s good (but also sad) to hear I’m not the only one experiencing this!

If he also struggles to talk to you I'd think he might be autistic and it's not personal to your kids (or specifically about kids at all).

That’s what I was wondering.

Maybe at home he thinks, “who’s this small, random squeaky person running around and ignoring me analysing the finer points of my job? Best ignore them in hopes they go away.”

I remember when I was a kid and visiting my aunt/uncle, that they warned me my uncle’s adult son was visiting and he didn’t like to talk to kids so not to expect any interaction with him. He’s a total selfish dick who’s been enabled to be a shitty person his whole life.

I understand you want a different relationship with your brother and it’s good you’re prioritising your children’s feelings. Your brother won’t change, even if you did speak with him about it. Your intuition that he’d just stop contact is probably correct.

How weird that you would not address this with him!

Derek, why do you ignore our children?

How is he with them if you manage the conversation in the same way that you do as an adult?

Fred, tell uncle John about what you’re doing in cubs at the moment. John, you used to be a cub didn’t you? Tell Fred about what you used to do at cubs when you were his age.

I don’t think I’ve ever asked you this John, what’s your earliest memory? Fred, what’s yours. So interesting that they’re both memories of home. What do you both think?

Etc etc. I also agree that doing often works better than chatting with people with these sort of traits, so love the days out plan. If he’s a bit awkward with kids I would also give clear instructions “John, you take all of the kids to find a seat whilst I buy the coffees. Fred, please help John by chatting to your cousin”

@Mrsjohnsmith
I don't see it as a problem really.
The important thing is to chat to your kids about him in such a way that they know that it's not personal.

I believe in accepting people as they are unless their characteristics are negative or abusive. So your brother is not sociable finds interacting with people hard, especially children . However he evidently believes in "family" because he comes to visit, therefore in my opinion that's what matters.

I think this is important because while many of us seem to have a vision of what a "perfect family " should look like, and how people should behave, this is not reality.
The "fun uncle" role is one who plays with the kids, is a bit loud and does things to make them laugh. He occasionally takes them on trips out to either a theme park or a sporting event and everyone says how wonderful it is to have him.

But I feel that teaching your children that it is better to be yourself, to find positives in the way others are and hope they will see the positives in you is a greater message.
I would say a birdwatching uncle who prefers to sit quietly when visiting and listen rather than engage in conversation is equally valid.

Let your brother be who he is. You presumably know him well, so why, unless he has changed considerably through an illness or something would you feel that he could be any different.

Maybe I don't believe in having to pretend around family and that many children ( not all) are often more flexible than adults and can learn to adapt their interactions with them and reap the benefits in the future.

I just feel like now they’re getting older, he’s a guest in their house and it’s really rude to just ignore their existence as far as possible…….i also feel like I’m teaching my kids that it’s ok for someone to come into your home not even use basic manners to ask how you are

Your expectations are spot on. It's possible he is just uncertain about how to speak to children - for some people it just doesn't come naturally. But I agree it's now just rude at their ages.

Your plan to stop the weekends and switch to a day out is perfect. Maintains the connection while keeping it shorter and more relaxed.

Why are you so worried he won't come at all?

It’s weird that you’re close enough to have him stay but not to discuss something like ignoring your kids. I’d find that harder than having a discussion. If it’s upsetting your kids and you can’t say anything I wouldn’t have him stay, you need to protect them and they will pick up on it, it’s ok not to enjoy kids company but they are human beings who deserve common courtesy in their own home

There is a school of thought that links both ADHD and ASD (Autistic Spectrum Disorder) on the same spectrum. As a parent of both an Autistic child, and an ADHD child, married to ADHD husband, I have often thought that this could be so.

As soon as I finished reading what OP had to say, my Nd (neuro divergent) radar was pinging. This sounds to me like a man who has never learned/been taught how to be sociable with family (friends too, probably) and who feels awkward. I think he's coming to see OP because he really wants to spend time with the family.

So, what should OP do? - and in my opinion it doesn't matter whether or not DB has a diagnosis or is willing to seek one.
Firstly, OP and her DH seem to be doing a good job of including her DB and should keep on doing what they are doing.
Secondly, OP, if you can, please try to get out of your head the thought that DB is being rude. He seems to be doing the best he can. If you need more from him, gently prompt him " DB, I know you're appreciating your visits here, but it would be lovely if YOU could say thank you sometimes, instead of letting DSIL doing it every time. I'm just a bit needy that way".
Thirdly, you have a good opportunity to teach your children about neuro diversity, inclusion and social niceties. They are just the right ages.
Fourthly, take the opportunity to model to your brother, how to play/interact with his child. Tell him what yours did when they were the same age. Show him how much babies/toddlers love to interact. He probably doesn't know what to do and is silently berating himself because others seem to do it naturally.

I hope this is helpful to anyone in a similar situation.

For everyone else reading this far, thank you and if you find yourself encountering a "rude" person, please stop and ask yourself if there's more to a situation you see than just rudeness. (Hint, there usually is). Just as an aside, my Autistic child, aged 5 or so, when asked what flavour ice cream she wanted replied that she wanted the green one. Shop assistant went off muttering about children not being taught manners. I was over the moon because that was the first time she had spoken to someone outside her immediate family. That's what I mean about asking yourself if there is something more to a situation than is immediately obvious.

Given that you've said he's not much of a talker, maybe your expectations are unrealistic. If his involvement with other family members is much the same, that's him.

He could be an introvert.