Dentist annual salary??

[Milsonwilson]

So it seems as though lots of people are wanting to become dentists lately including a friend of mine. She is thinking of a complete career change as there's "so much money" to be made in it.

I've had a little look and can't seem to find the average annual wage for a general dentist?

Is this true? Is their wage that high?

I know there would be money to be made if she opened her own practice. But what about on a employed basis?
Anyone have knowledge of this?

Interesting thread. A lot more pressure and health issues than I would have expected.

Many jobs have stress, pressure and health issues and earn min wage.

My friend is a dental nurse, earns next to nothing and has all the health issues with her back, varicose veins from standing all the time etc. She said she would never want to be a dentist though because of all the pressure. I also know a couple who own a dentist practice private only and they are absolutely loaded.

Actually U.K. is not most expensive in Europe , by a long chalk. This “fact” is based on lazy reporting of a 2008 research on the cost of a filling in an 11 year old child in a community clinic (ie a clinic run to treat special needs children and adults etc) . The cost came up as over £100 a filling because these clinics treat the most difficult physical and mental impairments and have specialised equipment , sedation facilities etc. Many European countries do not have the widespread equivalent of the community clinic .

For comparison German costs https://germanpedia.com/dental-treatment-cost-germany/#:~:text=In%20Germany%2C%20professional%20teeth%20cleaning,€%20per%20annum%20for%20it.

There is massive dental tourism in Ireland where hey travel across the border to Northern Ireland where dentistry is a half or more cheaper in many cases.

It costs from from from £160 to over £200 an hour to run just one room in a dental surgery. The NHS pays nothing to the costs just what is paid to the dentist for costs. In the U.K. the average amount spent per patient treated per year in NHS dentistry was around £39 ish.

To put that into context when the government opened UDCs (urgent care centres) where all costs were paid by the NHS and the staff were employed the cost of an average course of treatment (and this was some years ago) was £450.

Most practices on top of their clinical duties the dentists run and manage the practice , doing everything from minor repairs ,DIY to paperwork in the evenings and weekends unpaid as opposed to clinics where someone is employed to do these things or protected time is paid .

Your friends daughter is way above what I would recognise as an average dentists earnings , particularly so young and early in their career. They earn almost double what I would expect of a practice owner.

These figures represent more of what I would recognise as indicative earnings https://www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/dentist-salary-SRCH_KO0,7.htm

I am speaking as someone who only (just) paid higher rate tax when I was working four jobs including weekends and evenings as a very experienced dentist who also did some teaching.

Your own link shows that Germany is cheaper e.g look at the costs per filling 80 to 100 euros, UK private is £180 to £360.

2008 report? nope, my own research based on the £3k estimate i was given by a dentist in the UK.

i couldn't find a single country in Europe that even matched the UK, let alone more expensive.
France though did come up as having quite significant dentist shortages but still much cheaper than UK.

When/if i need more work, it'll be in Portugal.

Also, in most European countries, dentistry is available under their own health services, esp for children.

Try finding a dentist who will treat you under the NHS as a new patient.

Yes i do agree on the costs we have in the UK.

One of my cousin's was a dentist in Northern Ireland and I agree, it's extremely stressful. His back is knackered. He went into maxillofacial after this which sounds worse but he loved it.
My old UK dentist in London was fantastic but quit due to burnout and ditto his partner who developed all sorts of autoimmune issues. My private dentist (practice owner) seems to take it all in his stride but says it's very stressful. He does have some flash cars though! Apparently dentists can be prone to high mercury levels.

it seems as though lots of people are wanting to become dentists lately including a friend of mine. She is thinking of a complete career change as there's "so much money" to be made in it.

Do these 'lots of people' have excellent science A levels? Getting into dental school is extremely competitive and then doing the actual 5 year course is hard-very similar to med school. Plus getting £70k+ worth of debt and not earning whilst you're training!

@Lollygaggle
"Your friends daughter is way above what I would recognise as an average dentists earnings , particularly so young and early in their career. They earn almost double what I would expect of a practice owner.

These figures represent more of what I would recognise as indicative earnings www.glassdoor.co.uk/Salaries/dentist-salary-SRCH_KO0,7.htm

I am speaking as someone who only (just) paid higher rate tax when I was working four jobs including weekends and evenings as a very experienced dentist who also did some teaching."

I am not professing to be hugely knowledgeable. It does surprise me the Glassdoor averages given the little I know and conversations with parents of those young dentists. I wonder if that is Influenced by a lot being part time? It just doesn't seem to align with the offers the younger dentist I knew got in the first couple of years post grad which was well above what's quoted...and we are Yorkshire, not London. But yes, their work is mostly private so maybe that's the difference

I have been involved in teaching and know what most of my trainees have earned over the last few years and what they earn now. None of them even come close to these sort of figures , even a few years after qualifying.

As dentists are self employed what they are offered is pretty meaningless because most of it is possible gross earnings . The practice will take 50 to 70% to cover their expenses , the dentist then has to pay expenses out of what they get like lab fees, hygienist fees , then there are the indemnity , registration , cpd expenses , various insurances , then finally tax.

This diagram explains very well the trajectory of dental earnings , as you get more experienced and do more courses you earn more , then start to slow down in your 50s as your body etc starts to give up.

Of course they do. What an odd thing to say as I was just expressing surprise at this being so much a factor in dentistry. I am in a job myself with plenty of stress etc and not far above min wage .

Actually again re state dental services this is not true.

If we take our near neighbour , Ireland , where dental treatment is more expensive than the U.K. and dental tourism , where people cross to NI for treatment is common , they have, in theory , a very,very restricted free service for children .

However in common with the U.K. it has collapsed , even though it is far less comprehensive than NHS dentistry , because Irish dentists cannot be found to provide it as it has become uneconomic to provide. This in a country where indemnity, registration and regulation is far,far cheaper and which does not have the litigation problem of U.K. dentists .
https://www.newstalk.com/news/hse-dental-service-for-children-has-collapsed-1512782

As the average annual wage in Portugal is €11,000 or £9,200 ish compared to £34,963 in the U.K. , the average Portuguese national will find dental treatment as comparably expensive as a U.K. resident and the rates of Portuguese visiting dentist are comparable to U.K. https://www.expatica.com/pt/healthcare/healthcare-services/dentists-in-portugal-1125051/

If you want to know why dentists can no longer afford to work on the NHS look at what it pays .

Take a band two treatment , which involves check up , x rays (if needed) , treatment of gum disease ,extractions and fillings etc which will require a minimum of two visits taking a minimum of 40 minutes more if more than one filling , extraction etc .

In England patient will pay £73.20 the government will, on average pay £9.80 on top. So to cover all the practice expenses , wages, training , equipment, consumables etc most practices will have to earn £140 to £200 plus an hour per room.

The £84 earned has to cover all of this and pay the dentist. In general after paying the practice expenses the dentist will earn 1/3 of this ie £28 for at least 40 minutes work and possibly for many hours work. However this also has to cover the dentists indemnity , registration costs , cpd , holidays, sickness , training courses etc. so a dentist working in mostly NHS work will work January to April just to cover their personal costs before they start to earn anything.

Some treatments like crowns, bridges , dentures the laboratory costs are more than a practice gets in on fees so the practice is , effectively , paying to treat someone.

Add to this dental inflation is running at least 10% and last years fee rise was just over 4% , was due in April last year , it represents yet another fee cut but still hasn’t been paid from April last year.

To put into context the last year I , a very experienced and highly qualified dentist , worked almost exclusively in the NHS I earned £28,000 which is less than a newly qualified dental therapist. A friend , a practice owner , left the NHS after they earned £17,000 in a year.

Add to this NHS dentists in England and Wales cannot charge for missed appointments and up to 40% of all new NHS dental appointments are failed. The practice expenses still have to be paid but no income is earned.

@Lollygaggle
Absolutely spot on re the realities life of the average UK General Dental Practitioner.
Community Dentistry (salaried dentists) is no better either; increasingly difficult patients with less and less resources plus recruitment is near impossible. Can be an extremely emotionally draining job too dealing with all the extreme social problems in CDS, never mind the dentistry (that's often the easiest part 🥲).
33 years in and within 3 years of retirement now; definitely would have done another course.

Haha "Open wide please"

@Lollygaggle Are you a child of the 70s when every visit required at least two fillings (as dentists were paid per filling)?
Dentists also used to make a lot of mistakes eg taking out the "wrong" tooth!!
It was an absolutely terrifying experience!!

Went on a course recently where virtually everyone said they would not recommend the job to their children and the majority would not do it again themselves given their time again.

Much love to community dentists , our local ones are mostly working in mobiles etc that should have been condemned years ago , increasingly having to hit impossible targets , manning weekend and out of hours clinics for a wage which is , frankly , insulting for the stress and responsibility . Locally to us GA waiting lists are two years plus and there is no where to refer anything , no domicillary service commissioned , nothing . All that matters to the authorities is saving money which increasingly means the service is relying on the older dentists working because of their social conscience but when they retire no one is stupid enough to take their place.

I know I’m not who you were asking but I just wanted to say that I agree in the distant past some dentists were too filling happy as it were. But now it’s swung so far the other way that we no longer have a functioning dental system at all.

So what is the answer that’s the hard part. If you pay by filling, people think unnecessary work will be done. If you pay by course of treatment, dentists just won’t do it if they’re earning less than a Tesco worker but with 5 years of student debt and expensive insurance and bills to cover.
Honestly who in their right mind who go through 5+ years intensive training coming out about 80k in debt with expensive work related bills coming up and accept £20 an hour wage? I’d rather go work in Tesco for less and have less stress and bills.

There needs to be a medium found where NHS dentists are appropriately compensated for their training and work, without encouraging unnecessary work by bad dentists. So if you have any ideas for that I’m sure people are willing to listen!

Fluoride toothpaste was not generally available in the U.K. until the mid 70s and sugar consumption was higher so the average person needed many more fillings and extractions.

Additionally the equipment, materials and techniques in dentistry have come on immeasurably so teeth that would have been taken out in the past can now be saved , and dentists will now be taught to use other methods eg fluoride varnish on early decay whereas in the past they would have had to fill teeth.

Yes I had fillings in the 70s , they were necessary , my last filling was when I was 18 , I went to dental school, changed my diet , stopped having sugar in coffee etc and many decades later have not needed a filling since.

I and most dentists find this narrative of every dentist being crooked , making up treatment, incompetent , taking out wrong teeth really wearing when we know the vast majority of past and present colleagues are absolutely tortured by trying to do the very best for our patients.

@mukey My comment was more that people (of a certain age) say "i used to hate dentists" rather than the rest of the post.
I have to say that I now only go when there's a problem (eg 20 year old filling is now loose). If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!

Core service to keep people out of pain.
check up, x rays , extractions, plastic dentures and possibly root treatment on front teeth. Everything else private . The restricted budget would then be used where it is most needed ie pain management . It would make what is available on the NHS crystal clear and hopefully reasonably renumerated.

In my area children in pain with abcesses wait two plus years for general anaesthetic to remove those teeth yet 50% of the children’s NHS budget is spent on orthodontics (braces).

Decay is the number 1 reason for young children to need a hospital stay.

@Lollygaggle
Your first post has so perfectly summed up the reality of the job! I loved the pathological mistrust part so spot on.

Yes some people can earn high amounts but it's the exception rather than the rule. There's far more easy ways to do so. Overheads are crazy expensive at the moment so profitability for practice owners is declining.

The PP in her 70s referring to her friends with well off Dentist DHs; there was definitely a 'golden age' but those times have definitely passed since early 00s and increased costs, litigation, NHS system became awful to work under in 2008.

@aliceinawonderland I hear this so much from my patients (refer back to pathological mistrust!) and all of them are of an age where there wasn't access to fluoride toothpaste when they were children and it's feasible they needed lots of fillings. Also the thinking back then was 'extension for prevention' and fillings were done at the first sight of decay whereas since 1990s the ethos changed and we closely monitor early decay, as well as placing white fillings which are less destructive than amalgams

@Lollygaggle and others -

Thanks so much for explaining about a dentist’s life. I haven’t thought about it before and some aspects (back pain etc) had simply never occurred to me. I do feel I understand a little better now so thank you.

Your dentist is doing a great job and it’s so exhausting because they are playing a relaxed and cheerful role in an effort to make your experience less stressful.

Its generally 7-8 hours a day leaning over in awkward positions for long periods of time concentrating on tiny areas which require constant brain power, concentration and problem solving all whilst managing a usually very anxious, stressed patient that “absolutely hates the dentist”.
lots of patients are unable to recline in the chair so standing up and leaning over in unnatural positions are what is required.
Appointments are never long enough to listen to all of a patients worries and concerns, understand an ever changing and often complex medical history, assess a persons capacity and then perform - a comprehensive head neck and mouth oral cancer screening, assess gum health which is extremely complex and misunderstood, review the teeth, fillings and dentures to make sure everything is okay, and if anything is needing to be done explain what the problem is, give multiple options, gain consent and treatment plan for the the next appointment. Then in 8 minutes do it all again with a completely different person with completely different needs.

Alot of restorative work (fillings) in dentistry requires moisture control - no bleeding or salvia…this is a huge challenge as people mouths are in poor health their gums bleed readily and salvia produced all the time, people also have gag reflex’s and can’t tolerate instruments or cotton wool in their mouth.

Dentistry is complete fire fighting and patients expect a smiley happy reassuring face but this requires great acting skills alongside surgical skills - I am unsure of any other profession that patients expect complete pain control, a perfect and on time treatment and a happy and smiley clinician whilst they are completely awake

Spot on , we are taught that no matter how stressed we are , how rude , unpleasant or aggressive a patient is , how difficult the proceedure is we have to maintain a professional, friendly and empathetic demeanour.

A colleague had a patient complain because their appointment was cancelled because the colleagues three year old was undergoing life saving open heart surgery. The patient complained because as the dentist wasn’t doing the surgery they didn’t need to be there! It had to be explained that the dentists mind might be elsewhere and not entirely focused on patients treatment whilst their child was on the table.

I worked directly after being phoned in the surgery to be told my father had died , had a small cry and carried on up until the morning of my father’s funeral , liasing with the funeral director inbetween patients , then went back to work the next morning. I worked with severe morning sickness with a bowl hidden in a cupboard so I could throw up inbetween patients . I worked directly after being physically attacked by a patient , etc and in not one of those instances did my patients have any clue all was not sweetness and light in my world , which is the professional thing to do.