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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To compare India Knight to Alice Munro?

119 replies

Heyyoupleasekeepgoing · 11/01/2025 19:55

Just finished the brilliant piece in the New Yorker Magazine Here about how Alice Munro ignored the abuse of her daughter by her husband, and the general opinion (although easier to hold now she is dead) that her work should no longer be respected and read as it was.

AIBU to think of the vastly less celebrated but nonetheless still writing for the Times etc India Knight, who stood by her own paedophile partner (Eric Joyce) and was named as a mitigating factor in his sentencing for viewing and downloading the most extreme category of CSA - ie supporting his support of the severe abuse of someone’s children (and babies according to the court case)? As their promised “explanations” have not been forthcoming, please can we stop publishing/ reading her now?

Alice Munro’s Passive Voice

The celebrated writer’s partner sexually abused her daughter Andrea. The abuse transformed Munro’s fiction, but she left it to Andrea to confront the true story.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2024/12/30/alice-munros-passive-voice

OP posts:
FartyPants9 · 12/01/2025 22:03

Heyyoupleasekeepgoing · 11/01/2025 21:05

Just me, then

Why were you expecting immediate replies? People are so impatient nowadays.

India Knight shouldnt still have a career IMO.

SerafinasGoose · 12/01/2025 22:42

FartyPants9 · 12/01/2025 22:03

Why were you expecting immediate replies? People are so impatient nowadays.

India Knight shouldnt still have a career IMO.

Well, anyone can be fired for bringing their profession into disrepute. Lawyers, for one, are expected to maintain particular standards in everything, whether this comes under their working jurisdiction or not. I suppose strictly speaking journalism is an occupation rather than a profession, although the two overlap.

Dismissing a staff member on this basis is a different thing altogether from cancel culture. And even though I'm sick and tired of seeing women blamed for the misdemeanours of men, in this case I can't see anything other than ample grounds for firing Knight.

Onlyonekenobe · 12/01/2025 22:51

Drivingoverlemons · 12/01/2025 17:49

The school announced it was taking her books off the shelves? I don’t actually remember them ever being on the shelves at my school, I read my mum’s or library versions.

At DD’s junior school the five find outers series was a popular read, and Malory Towers and Famous Five have new BBC adaptations. I read with junior school kids and one picked The Enchanted Wood the other day (from the school library). Kate Winslet reads the audio version. I could go on 😂

From a quick Google, you can buy new boxsets of several series. The new versions are edited in parts. There was a whole thing about it a few years ago.

It was 40 years ago and there’s nobody left to ask now, but I don’t think they announced it. They just took them away. I know about it because it was brought up by my mum years later. The jolly hockey sticks thing was never my bag, so no loss to me either way.

I don’t live in the UK anymore so my children are growing up with other writers. To PP who referenced AM as being an authentic voice of rural, lower class 20th century North America: there are others in that category. Barbara Kingsolver, Margaret Atwood for Eg. Both amazing (and actually better writers imho, although AM still great).

Blahblahblah2 · 12/01/2025 23:05

Alice Munro was a genius and a truly terrible mother. I love her work, but I can cope with never reading it again. Just as I can cope with never listening to Michael Jackson. His voice sickens me.

This isn't cancel culture, it's my personal feeling of repulsion towards people who sexually abuse children, or who enable abusers. There are lots of other amazing artists out there. I don't expect anyone to be a saint, but not abusing children is the bare minimum!

India Knight is no genius, and I am amazed at how people still read and share her work.

Drivingoverlemons · 13/01/2025 00:14

India is not trying to be a genius, Alice Munro or Margaret Atwood (for that matter nor was Enid Blyton). But her substack is really popular so there is a lot of snootiness about what people might want to read on this thread.

Supersimkin7 · 13/01/2025 00:40

Munro might find the literary comparison a touch more insulting than the abuse stuff, but India Knight’s a very good writer.

Read what you want. I’m not reading the expose of Munro cos I can’t face ruining those little brown pages of genius.

Funny how women are the target of outrage, isn’t it. Almost as if they’d done anything abusive themselves. Like men. Coleridge as a father, anyone?

Supersimkin7 · 13/01/2025 00:43

MinistryofThyme · 12/01/2025 17:49

IK’s (disabled, vulnerable) daughter had to go and live with her father because IK stayed with EJ.

And is now a man.

Nanny0gg · 13/01/2025 00:54

MinorGodhead · 12/01/2025 15:12

I think if you think that knowing about past abuse is ethically or legally the same as actually committing it, it might be as well to say this if you get called for jury duty.

You could stay married to an abuser?

I couldn't

That's the point

AliasGrace47 · 13/01/2025 02:03

Saschka · 11/01/2025 22:47

To be fair, most children have already stopped reading them. Lots of them haven’t aged well (not for “woke reasons”, they are not far off 100 years old and just seem very old fashioned)

Secret seven are still ok, but they were always the most suburban and “normal” of her series.

Untrue! I'm a Gen Zer, I love Malory Towers, St Clare's, Mr Meddle, Binkle & Flip & about 500 others by her. Tbf, I was an insane bookworm as a child & read a lot of old books due to being raised partly by my gran, but a lot of my friends love Malory Towers & some others too. It was televised bc there was an existing fanbase.
Several esp are dated, I hated Famous Five & Secret Seven. Imo a lot of the lessee known ones are better.
I've known about Blyton's behaviour for years & I think she was vile. I still read her books but it does spoil them a bit that she loved her fans more than her younger daughter (older one was golden child).

AliasGrace47 · 13/01/2025 02:04

Supersimkin7 · 13/01/2025 00:43

And is now a man.

Vile woman. Her poor daughter. I liked her columns but now think she is unbelievable.

AliasGrace47 · 13/01/2025 02:10

SerafinasGoose · 12/01/2025 16:56

T. S. Eliot. Virginia Woolf. D. H. Lawrence. Mark Twain. Wyndham Lewis. Roald Dahl. Frances Hodgson Burnett. John Middleton Murry. E. M. Forster. Lewis Carroll. Arthur Ransome. Charles Dickens. All are writers with dubious if not downright disturbing political views or questionable personal behaviour (and most make Enid Blyton and her antics look like Mary Poppins). Should they all be expunged from the canon?

This is neither apologism for abusers or a commendation of racists. Art and artists are separate. Individuals can make their own choices about whether they choose to support those still living by buying or engaging with their work. I don't endorse a culture of censorship as I don't care for where this leads.

I'm not sure tho ..Enid Blyton was racist and abusive to her children. Virginia Woolf, to take one eg, writing gross anti-Semitic comments in her diary is horrible, bit AFAIK she didn't do anything anti-Semitic in real life. Racism is terrible but I personally would weigh actions that directly effect others (like cruel parenting) above comments made to a personal diary. I'm not sure about the other examples, Roald Dahl I know was awful to his family as well as racist..

AliasGrace47 · 13/01/2025 02:12

Serafina, what did Frances Burnett do? She's the only one who I really couldn't theorise about. I hope it wasn't really bad, I love A Little Princess.
And EM Forster? I couldn't find anything about racism. I find him quite sexist but not egregiously so. Is there some other skeleton?

TempestTost · 13/01/2025 02:45

Koulibiak · 12/01/2025 21:08

In Munro’s defence, she herself had a problematic view of boundaries, possibly caused by the physical abuse she suffered as a child, her own rape, and/or the fact that her husband (the abuser) was a bully who isolated her from friends and family. They had, I imagine, a codependent relationship where he created a void around her which enabled her to write, and she deferred to him to make decisions. She also didn’t know about her daughter’s ordeal until years later. Her writing shows this preyed heavily on her mind, as she revisited the subject in a number of stories.

I’m pleased that DC will be studying a Munro short story as part of their English GCSE. She is the voice of rural, lower class North American (Canadian) women in the second part of the 20th century, imperfect as she was. Even with her terrible shortcomings as a human being, her contribution is essential and must not be obliterated by the crimes of a man.

The world would be a poorer place without Munro’s writing. I don’t think she ever claimed virtue; but she is a virtuoso, and that’s what matters as far as art is concerned.

Yes, this.

People's lives are often really complicated, and full of moral compromises. Sometimes people who live with that kind of complication can be the most gifted artists, and I think that's particularly the case with writers. The ability to write about real people is only possible for those who have a strong insight into the shades and even dark sides of human nature.

I think this is why so many great writers, even great children's writers, weren't just sunny kind types, but could in fact be rather unpleasant.

LinnettdeBelleforte · 13/01/2025 08:21

Viviennemary · 11/01/2025 22:30

This is ridiculous. Apparently Enid Blyton was no angel in her personal life. Should children stop reading her books.

There is a difference between being 'no angel' and condoning child rape. I am as anti woke and anti cancel culture as it gets, but child rape is a hard line.

MinorGodhead · 13/01/2025 08:28

Nanny0gg · 13/01/2025 00:54

You could stay married to an abuser?

I couldn't

That's the point

You aren’t getting it.

BIossomtoes · 13/01/2025 08:31

Funny how women are the target of outrage, isn’t it. Almost as if they’d done anything abusive themselves.

When a bank’s robbed the driver of the getaway car is equally culpable. Knight not only continues to live with her paedophile partner but stood up in court to protect him and was instrumental in getting his sentence reduced with “the love of a good woman” argument. She’s a fucking disgrace.

echt · 13/01/2025 08:51

"Books are well or badly written. That is all." Oscar Wilde.

VelvetFuzzy · 13/01/2025 09:07

@Supersimkin7 How is staying with your child's abuser not an abusive act?

ask any of us who were abused by our father's and whose mothers were well aware and just let it happen and minimised it.

India knights daughter being a man is neither here nor there. That said, I am gender critical.

SerafinasGoose · 13/01/2025 09:15

AliasGrace47 · 13/01/2025 02:10

I'm not sure tho ..Enid Blyton was racist and abusive to her children. Virginia Woolf, to take one eg, writing gross anti-Semitic comments in her diary is horrible, bit AFAIK she didn't do anything anti-Semitic in real life. Racism is terrible but I personally would weigh actions that directly effect others (like cruel parenting) above comments made to a personal diary. I'm not sure about the other examples, Roald Dahl I know was awful to his family as well as racist..

Thanks for this reply, @AliasGrace47. You've made me think!

I've reassessed my minimisation of Blyton. One of her children claimed she was abusive, the other said she wasn't. However, I'm well-versed in the golden child vs. scapegoat dynamic. I think it can be accepted that she was - and denying her children any contact with their father because she'd got tired of him and moved on is really unforgivable. And when married to her first husband at least, she allegedly had a number of affairs with both men and women. (Her portrayal of Alison's schoolgirl crush on Miss Quentin in the St. Clare school series was one of the few nuanced, sensitively drawn characterisations in the whole of her output, it seems to me).

Woolf's anti-semitism was public. She'd published fiction containing such problematic racist tropes that one publisher had to get her to revise it. The story 'The Duchess and the Jeweller' includes the well-known and horrible stereotypes of big noses and monetary greed. Another Jewish protagonist is described thus - 'her food, of course, swam in oil and was nasty'. Woolf was also famously waspish and openly nasty to her female contemporaries in particular, most notably May Sinclair and Katherine Mansfield, whom she viciously satirised as Mrs Manresa in Between the Acts and referred to as stinking like 'a civet cat that had taken to streetwalking'. Ofc, private comments in a diary never intended for publication are another thing - and Leonard published these against her stated wishes in her Will. There's a lot of fragility in Woolf's personality and genius, and this is nuanced as there were plenty of good things about her as well. And I'll always read her, because in my biased view she really is up there amongst the most outstanding writers of all time.

E M Forster: I think his sexism (mild, I agree) often derives from the fact that he's famously bad at writing heterosexual relations. Henry Willcox's proposal to Margaret Schlegal, for eg., must be one of the most awkward and unromantic in English literature. There are problematic caricatures of Indian characters in A Passage to India, albeit he does try to represent the Raj from both eastern and western perspectives. I think, on reflection, Joseph Conrad might have been a better example. Burnett, however, is more overt in The Secret Garden. The taint of colonialism - more than parental neglect - must be responsible for turning Mistress Mary into such a brat, and of course nothing more medicinal than a good dose of Yorkshire fresh air is enough to sort her out and instil in her some good, old-fashioned British common sense! It jars.

Wyndham Lewis, T S Eliot, unashamed fascists. D H Lawrence by all accounts a very nasty piece of work - wrote about herding specific groups of people (can't remember whether these were race- or class-based) into Kew Gardens and pumping it full of poison gas. This assertion predated the Holocaust. He once wrote to Katherine Mansfield that she revolted him, stewing in her consumption, and he hoped she would die. Nice!

Charles Dickens has long been known to have been hateful to his wife. I believe evidence has recently come to light that he tried to have her shut away in a mental asylum.

As for Carroll and Ransome - some highly dubious behaviour between grown men and children in both men's biographical stories, in particular the former. Carroll's Alice books are wonderful literature, but I now can't read these without feeling slightly contaminated.

Again, thanks for the food for thought!

Serpentstooth · 13/01/2025 09:15

No need for this, nobody reads India Knight anyway. Stop calling attention to her.

Valeriekat · 13/01/2025 09:17

username299 · 11/01/2025 21:35

Could you Pm me the list of everyone squeaky clean with a squeaky clean spouse that I'm allowed to read please?

Someone who supports a paedophile and happily carries on as normal is complicit in the abuse.
A little worse than not squeaky clean.

MinorGodhead · 13/01/2025 09:17

I’m not sure whether you will hit a paywall here, but this Rosita Boland essay reminded me of something I’d forgotten about the abuse, which was the family-wide dysfunction and silence.

The nine-year-old Andrea actually told her father (Munro’s first husband) immediately after the first abuse by her stepfather. Her father didn’t tell his ex-wife or confront Gerald Fremlin. He just sent another daughter with her on future visits to ensure she wasn’t alone with Fremlin. Which didn’t work. The abuse continued in different ways.

Andrea finally told her mother when she was 25. Munro left her husband briefly, but returned to him, saying Andrea had told her ‘too late’. Fremlin wrote a whole-family letter saying Andrea was a ‘Lolita’ in ‘quest of sexual adventure’. Andrea continued to visit her mother and stepfather for several more years. Everyone now knew but no one said anything, it was only when Andrea had twins and forbade Fremlin to visit them with Munro, that all contact ceased, and even then Andrea only went to the police (with Fremlin’s letter years) later again, when Munro gave an interview praising Fremlin and saying how close she was to all her daughters. He was charged, pleaded guilty to indecent assault, got two years’ probation, but it wasn’t widely known about till Andrea wrote about it in a Canadian newspaper a couple of months after Munro’s death. Munro’s game wasn’t much lauded locally in smalltown Canada, probably because it was known about there.

The reason I recount this at such length is that I recognise that familial culture of silence and ‘knowing but refusing to acknowledge’. I was also sexually abused when I was nine, and never told my parents because I knew they would minimise it, and not act. Not even the abuse of their child would have meant they spoke up, confronted, or ‘made a fuss’. They would have chosen a quiet life. Like Alice Munro.

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/2025/01/04/i-loved-alice-munro-but-the-literary-legacy-of-the-canadian-chekhov-is-tainted-forever-now/

Alice Munro at home in Clinton, Ontario, in 2013. The author died in May 2024 at age 92. Photograph: Ian Willms/The New York Times

I loved Alice Munro but recent revelations have tainted her legacy forever

Everything written about Alice Munroe after revelations about her daughter’s sexual abuse will record the Nobel Prize-winning author’s failure as a parent and human being

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/books/2025/01/04/i-loved-alice-munro-but-the-literary-legacy-of-the-canadian-chekhov-is-tainted-forever-now

VelvetFuzzy · 13/01/2025 09:42

lazyarse123 · 12/01/2025 15:33

I am a csa survivor. I think it would be interesting to find out whether the pp thinking it's OK to still read these writers (honestly never heard of either but not the point) have ever been a victim of this sort of crime or know anyone who has.
I personally would not want to have anything to do with abuse apologists of any kind.

Yes I'm a victim of different kinds of CA, including CSA. I don't really do cancel culture, and still would read Alice Munro or even Enid Blyton. I don't pay royalties to them because I use library or second hand books. I wouldn't buy their stuff new, even if I was someone who buys new books. That said I also get why some wouldn't want to read them at all.

VelvetFuzzy · 13/01/2025 09:46

LinnettdeBelleforte · 13/01/2025 08:21

There is a difference between being 'no angel' and condoning child rape. I am as anti woke and anti cancel culture as it gets, but child rape is a hard line.

Any abuse of a child is hard line, that includes psychological or verbal abuse. There isn't a hierarchy when it comes to abuse because it's all potentially damaging to the victim, often in very similar ways regardless of the nature of the abuse.

westisbest1982 · 13/01/2025 09:59

BIossomtoes · 12/01/2025 15:58

I remember that too. My opinion of Hughes plummeted when that happened. Knight is a rubbish beauty writer whose recommendations always cost squillions and never live up to her extravagant promises. She actually stood up for Joyce in court and played a part in him not getting a jail sentence. She should be hanging her head in shame.

I recall that vividly. IK (or her assistant) removed thousands of tweets a few years ago, but some tattle users have screenshotted them. I think Sali has dropped her.

Allowing your relationship to be used as mitigation in that case was beyond the pale. My guess is that she's (possibly) still with him because she knows she would have to take a huge financial hit if they divorce and she’s no longer a big hitter at the Sunday Times.

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