Help me fix bedtimes!

[Ohmy88]

We have 2 wonderful children (DS (4) & DD (1)) but bedtimes are a disaster & we’re at a loss as to how to fix it.

Neither of our DC are good sleepers.

DS tends to sleep ok once he’s fallen asleep but after years of sitting with him until he falls asleep we decided to try & help him fall asleep on his own when he turned 4 in November. We started “weaning” him after lots of conversations about how big boys need to learn the skill. Started with sitting on his floor. This just seemed to replace his “need” for cuddling to sleep & 6 weeks later no real progress, it could be 9pm before he’d fall asleep. Evening gone…

We then tried to move out of his room & sit outside. Lots of shouting & getting upset asking that we sit on the floor until he fell asleep.

We have always had, I think, a good bedtime routine. Bath, stories, quick cuddle & then he has audio books he can listen to when we say it’s time to sleep. We keep the door open as he doesn’t like the dark, he has a nightlight, white noise.

But he gets so upset at us not being in his room with him - shouts & cries - and this now wakes up our 1 year old DD who is in the room next door.

We’ve tried explaining it to him in so many ways. Tried gentle encouragement & have now moved to taking away his privileges if he kicks up a big fuss. We recently took away a favourite set of his Lego (we had warned we would) when he kept saying he’d just stay awake all night & continued to wake up his sister. I have no idea if that was the right thing to do.

So last night once DS finally drifted off (10pm) after waking DD 3 times, DD was up until 2am.

We both work. DD still often wakes in the night. We’re absolutely shattered & in our exhausted state just don’t know how we move forward.

Tricky one. But I don't think removing privileges is the way to go. But I understand that you will try anything when you are frustrated.

Some suggestions would be

• put him to sleep in your bed so you can lie comfortably next to him till he falls asleep. You can carry him back to his bed later.

• get him involved with the younger one's bedtime routine. Maybe he is feeling he is sharing bedtimes now, and thinks his sibling is getting the better deal.

• a later bedtime. Maybe it is just too early for him now.

• from another thread, is he hungry? Maybe a warm drink and a banana.

If you sit with him does he go over quicker? I'd go with that if so, I know it's a complete pain but some of them need that extra bit of if reassurance and turning it into a battle won't help.

If you want to continue with moving him along, would you try a more positive approach? Like a gro clock and sticker chart? So he can have a parent until X time, and if he doesn't call you in after that he gets a sticker (and lots of fuss) in the morning. When the chart is full he gets a new book or whatever treat will be exciting enough to aim for.

Sympathies. We had different bedtime struggles with our eldest when our youngest was that age, and it was so so hard. You're exhausted and frankly looking back we were barely functioning.

He's needing comfort so taking things away is going to confuse and cause upset.

What time is he going to bed?

My DS is 6 and I lie with him til he's asleep. I did find it's quicker than the battle of him trying to go to sleep on his own. He just wanted a cuddle to sleep.

I'm also not sure about removing privileges. It does feel unfair to me that you as parents let him get used to have you in the room until he was 4, and then suddenly start punishing him when you decide it's enough.
The older they get, the harder it is to wean them of those habits. If it's an issue for you, you should have addressed it sooner.

A few changes I would consider:

• not sure distractions like audio book before bed is a good idea. White noise is also not recommended (according to my readings - I'm no expert) past the baby stage I believe.
• can you push bedtime later? We try to keep our eldest 30-45 min later so he gets some "big boy time" with us
• I would go for a reward based approach, as opposed to punishment. Maybe a star chart and he gets some reward at the end of the week if he's behaved well at bedtime.

My DD was a bad sleeper on her own mainly because I co-slept for 4 years (lone parent full time job so sleep was the premium)

What I did was made a big thing out of her choosing her own bed, raised cabin bed with space underneath for a den. This created excitement and the non possibility of me getting in it, her being a "big girl" etc

I also bought a galaxy projector as she was clearly showing ND signs at that point so it really helped her be calm.

Introduced bed time story, me reading to her in a slow rhythm etc after her sat in bed with a book for a bit.

Oh also bath before bed helped her relax

I'd try all of this.

Definitely rewards not punishments

Also, if you're doing the bedtime stories, cuddles and audio books all in his bed/the bedroom, it sounds like quite a long routine.

You could try doing this in the living room instead, as an evening routine rather than "bedtime".

I have a nearly six year old and we will mostly sit with her go to sleep. If she's not dropping off within 20 mins I give her a head massage and she's out like a light. I'd say if that doesn't work he's going to bed too early. My 8 year old doesn't need us to fall asleep so our approach hasn't caused lasting issues.

I wouldn't punish for it. Try a reward for doing it. Also agree with pp to try later bedtime.

I've been where you are and I remember feeling so desperate for my grown-up evenings back.

It's a big shift for your son to sleep alone (and I don't know many adults that like sleeping alone).

While you're working with him to get used to sleeping alone can you reframe the time you're with him? It's not ideal but I came to enjoy the time sat in the dark in DC1's room because I could meditate or listen to an audiobook.

DC1 is 9 and still needs me upstairs while they fall asleep. DC2 is 6 and still needs someone to lay in bed with them. While it's tedious some nights I just remind myself that there will come a day when they won't let me over the threshold of their bedrooms, let alone need me to sleep!

Good luck; it's tough in the trenches.

We did this a lot earlier (turning 3), so I guess it was probably easier, but one thing we did as well as the conversations about how bedtime should work, was to be really clear and consistent about how many times we were able to come back in after sleep time. So initially it was 'I can only come back in three more times, this is the first one.' We had to really stick to our guns though and let DS cry if we'd said we weren't going back - this usually didn't last that long and then he'd fall asleep. Now several months later I don't mention the possibility of coming back but will do so ONE time if he calls, and say 'I can't come back any more times after this'. He believes it now so doesn't ask again.

The real difficulty with staying in the room until they fall asleep is that we realised he was fighting sleep because he was anxious about us leaving so was (even if not deliberately) trying to stay awake so he could stop us sneaking out. So we'd actually have been fine with staying a short while but it was making him stay awake longer and taking ages. Now he's not worrying about whether/when we're leaving he's much more relaxed.

Thank you for all your kind words suggestions 🩷

Just to respond to a few of them…

I haven’t felt great about the Lego / punishment since & your replies have reaffirmed that to me.

We did initially try the reward / sticker chart approach. He loves to talk about what treat he'd like when he’s got 5 stickers but, bless his heart, since we started this in November he has a total of 0 stickers because there’s just been no progress.

The reason we started having conversations with him about falling asleep on his own was because the length of time it took for us to cuddle him to sleep slowly crept up to an hour. Honestly we felt like we were a hindrance to him falling asleep, like a PP has mentioned.

Current routine is bath at 6:45, DD out at 7, DS out at 7:15 & then stories etc until 7:45. We’ve said he can play / listen to audio books until 8 & then it’s time to sleep. Is 8 really too early for 4yo? He loves his bath so making that any later would mean not giving him as long in there 🤔

There’s so many great suggestions in here which we will certainly give a go. We’re open to anything & really & truly our first priority is for him to have a healthy & confident relationship with sleep (for want of a better term)!

OP, you might be putting them to bed too late. My DC are 9 &6 and are in bed by 7:30/8 and asleep by 8/8:30.

Thanks @Thatsajokeright you may be right.

Also just to add re the white noise machine for those who mentioned it. They each have one & it can work well for preventing one waking the other. Albeit not if they really go for it! I’ve never seen it as a distraction for either but not using it is certainly something we’ve not tried yet…

Bath doesn't have to be part of a bedtime routine if you don't want to move it.
For instance at home we do dinner, bath, PJ between 5:45-6:45pm. Then quiet play time in the living area (could also be TV, books etc).
Youngest go up to bed around 7:15 with one of us (could be anything from 10 min to 45 min with milk and bedtime story).
Eldest can choose between staying downstairs to play (and stories), or stories in bed (usually if he's tired). Actual bedtime is usually between 7:30-7:45, max 8pm if he's had a nap in the afternoon.

A game-changer for us was the ‘Excuse me’ drill. It works by doing the normal bedtime sitting with them, then as they are almost falling asleep you need to pop out to the loo, or switch the oven off or similar. You don’t make a big deal of any of it and come straight back. You do this, not every night, but often and one time you come back and they are asleep. Again, you don’t make a big fuss but casually observe they fell asleep by themselves, just continue with the popping out and returning, taking longer out of the room. They become used to it and eventually are able to fall asleep by themselves.

I'd second the too late suggestion. He's only four, ours were in bed by 6:30 ish at that age. Might not be the case for yours of course but might be worth trying inching it back? Also means your evening is saved a little bit by starting earlier!

One thing to think about is what that bedtime time together represents for your DS and what need of theirs is it fulfilling. I’m still sitting with a child twice that age to fall asleep, in part because that’s their time for snuggles, chats and 1:1 parent time. It’s actually incredibly important time for them, as inconvenient as it is for us!

We tried enforced going to sleep by themselves at various ages but it actually had quite a detrimental impact on their daytime behaviour, their emotional state and they became quite anxious. Obviously most children cope perfectly fine falling asleep by themselves but I do honestly believe for my DC it is a need not a want to have a parent there and it’s the price we pay for them to sleep well and be calmer and happier in the daytime.

So I would put him to bed as normal. Everytime he shouts, go in, say nothing, no eye contact. Tuck him back in, kiss and go back out. And repeat many mnay times. Make it totally dull. It may take a couple of weeks but he will get the idea he has ro stay quietly in bed. It will be hard going though so I'd tag team with dh. Most importantly you don't stop doing it and you don't make any fuss or get into a discussion.

Does it work if you are around but just say that you’ll pop back in in a few minutes to see if he’s been a good boy and gone to sleep? So just putting away your washing and giving the bathroom a once over but with the door open so you’re there but not handholding. I just say that I’ve got to get on with my boring grown up jobs.

Thanks for your further advice & suggestions.

We have tried the popping to do this & that (& staying upstairs as a middle ground) but we just find he lies or sits there waiting for our next “visit”.

I flit between thinking he just needs us & thinking we’re being soft touches & he knows how to play us.

Anyway! We are going to read through this thread together later & come up with a plan of action, thanks for all your wisdom ☺️

I think it’s a really tricky age for it. They’re much more complex than babies who you can feed and rock etc.

I do think he’s old enough to reason with - I will say to my dd “it would be lovely to have a nice bedtime tonight with no shouting or crying” and “do you think you can be a really good big girl for me tonight and get lots of rest so you can have a great day tomorrow”

it does get better. We still have rough evenings but less than when they were toddlers or preschoolers who love to assert themselves and say no!

My 6yo still needs someone sitting with him to go to sleep. Sorry but it is normal for some kids to need it.

I don't think removing privileges is the solution. He's anxious and looking for connection; punishment will make him feel bad but not solve the issue. I would avoid all language around shame e.g. 'this is what big boys do'. Shame is never a useful tool for teaching because it shuts down trust and connection and leaves no pathway for progress.

4 is still very young. Lots of children need support to fall asleep. My son was the same and it's only now that he's nearer to five that we've managed to move to him falling asleep independently.

Our approach was twofold. First of all, you have to look at what's happening during the day. Is he waking up at the same time every day? Does he still nap and if so is it time to drop it? Is he getting enough time after tea to wind down before the bedtime routine starts? Is he getting enough exercise and outdoor time every day? See if there are changes you can make to the daytime routine to get him in a better position at bedtime.

The second part of the plan is to very, very slowly and gradually build up his confidence in being left alone. We did this with my son and it worked really well. To begin with we moved from sitting beside his bed to pottering around in his room - folding clothes, putting away books etc. things that kept us in the room but not right beside the bed.

We then moved to being able to pop in and out of his room - literally just for a few seconds at first then building up to longer stretches, but always always coming back when we said we would - I.e. 'I'm just going to put this in my bedroom, I'll be back in a few seconds' and then doing that.

Once we got to the point where we could leave the room for a couple of minutes at a time we transitioned to telling him we were leaving but would be back to check on him. We then would go back after five minutes. At first he would usually still be awake but calm when we returned, nowadays he's usually asleep by the time we go back to check on him.

Its a slow approach but pretty pain free.