To break up a marriage?

[SpatulaSpatula]

Or two or three or more... I have friends in abusive marriages. They know and they don't know. Coercion, financial abuse, sexual abuse (just short of rape), constant belittling, gaslighting, criticism, semi threats of violence. There are young children. No one has come to physical harm so far. It might never. All the light has gone from my beautiful, kind, intelligent friends. I really can't go into detail as it's too outing.

All the advice online is to tread carefully, listen, don't label anything as abuse and just try to redirect back to them how they're feeling and what they say has been done to them. But this has been decades now, I think it's affecting the children, and my heart breaks for all of them.

YABU - It's impossible. Telling people to leave their partners will only result in them shrinking away from you and further isolating themselves. Every single piece of professional advice says that people have to realise these things for themselves.

YANBU - Tell them what's what because the soft approach hasn't worked.

Obviously, all I want to do is the latter, but i just worry it will backfire horribly and then I won't be welcome, and they'll need me for when things get worse.

@SpatulaSpatula ok. That's different. If they're calling you in tears, I would ask at that point if they need any help to leave etc. If they say no, then that's their choice. Obviously if they do say they need help then offer it!

You’ve clearly never been in an abusive relationship.

they don’t ask for help. It can take years of interventions to convince an abuse victim to leave the relationship. Abusers can also be very good at hiding their abuse, and even making it look normal. In the case above he’d told everyone she was a gambler and had got herself into debt, which is why he controlled her finances. Absolutely not true, but even her children and close family believed it.

capacity is irrelevant if someone has such control over you you can’t use it.

look up coercive control.

o/p doesn’t have to pass judgement. But if she suspects abuse then an offer of help should be made. Women often don’t know how to get out, they have been conditioned into thinking they can’t survive without him.

I've not voted, as it is so difficult.

I was a child living with coercive father, and I wish my DM had left him. But I'm not sure that anyone could have persuaded her to, unless they had got there at just the right moment (on one of those days when she was totally pissed off with him and could see the damage it was doing to the DC) and been able to offer her a bolthole: she had no confidence left and couldn't see how she could manage financially without him (idle spendthrift loser that he was).

My aunt and uncle didn't like my father, but even they never got my DM away.

Edited to add, I've seen they call you in tears. That is your chance to say, 'Would you be happier away from him? This could be made to work, and here is how...'

I'm sorry but I don't believe that a friend has the right to decide that their friend's relationship should end. We're on about coercive control... well! If the friend asks for help, give it. Of course. Absolutely no question. But otherwise you are undermining that person's autonomy and control over their own life ( by thinking you know best) and being incredibly condescending/ reductive to that person. Sound familiar?

Can you suggest they read Lundy Bancroft “why does he do that?” Book? I don’t think your approach will make any difference as they’re in the thick of it and it sounds like you and others have basically told them these things before. Seeing things laid out in detail in the book from a professional and identifying their partners behaviour and the reasons why they do these things (abusive men do know what they’re doing and it stems from thinking they’re entitled to behave this way), that might just make a difference. In the meantime you could encourage them to prioritise things in their life that would help in future eg more focus on career and pension, reducing further ties to these men etc.

I wasn't going to reply to this as I thought you were essentially saying I was being a busy body, but maybe I'm just being defensive...?

These are some of my very closest long-standing friends, and I know I would be less stressed if I could have something closer to this attitude, but I really love them. They're the best people I know. I find it really hard not to worry about them. Not all the time, but most days my mind wanders to them. To do what you're asking, I think I'd actively have to distance myself from them, which I don't think would be good for them. Is that what you're suggesting, or do you think that even if close friends are in trouble no one should get involved with anyone's issues outside of their own?

I offer to help basically every time we speak. I just wish even one of them would take it!

@SpatulaSpatula , stop then. You're being a good friend. Now leave them to make their own choices! They are grown ups!

I do understand and I think everything your worried about is coming from a very good place. But you'll burn yourself out worrying about this. I have a friend and she literally thinks ALL her friends are in abusive relationships . She's single herself.

Honestly just give them womens aid telephone number then I think you have to leave it. Or tell them you can't be a sounding board anymore.

I'm probably very jaded to it all as (ironically) I worked in domestic abuse services for 20 years.

I think you should tell them how you see it. And recommend they read Why Does He Do That, and tell them you'll be there for them whatever they go through, listen to them and believe and empower them.
Read that book yourself too, it will help with other things you can do for your friends.

I do say that to them. We've even talked any what leaving would look like. They just never take the leap.

I'm really sorry that happened to you. I had similar. It's so strange seeing it from the outside and suddenly seeing how impossible it is to help.

It takes however many "incidents" before someone in a relationship decides to leave. Just hold onto the fact that one thing you've said at some point might be the thing in the back of one of your friends minds that sticks with them and is one of the jigsaw puzzle pieces that adds up to them leaving.

Like if it's a scale of 1 to 10 don't despair you haven't got seen them move from 9 to 10 and leave, you might move them from 1 to 2, or 4 to 6, and not see the rest of their journey towards leaving.

In a similar situation, friends, me included did recently raise concerns to a friend. She said she was just sort of used to it and didn’t notice anymore, also defended him as recently had a job loss etc etc. Seemed quite surprised we were saying it, even friends of friends who have been at parties have commented on it and think he’s a prick and they don’t even know them. So bizarre how she can’t see it/doesn’t pull him up on it, the way he speaks to her in front of people is horrendous, god only knows how it is indoors. She’s a wonderful person too, he’s completely punching, maybe he knows that, so tries to bring her down, it’s awful

Yep, ditto. Defending them, looking up to them, when clearly they're so much better than them.

They are not ready.
I get pissed off with the 'why don't they just leave' comments.

Abusers don't abuse from day one, it starts with little comments designed to erode self confidence and goes from there. Sometimes we are already damaged making it easy for a predator to get their claws in.
We are not stupid, lazy nor do we deserve it.
If you push they will stop taking to you, I have lost friends very very good friends because I wasn't ready for the mirror.

There is a lot of shame involved 'I am not a battered woman/victim' mindset because we victim shame the why don't they just leave comments help perpetrate this because it turns it back to being the victims fault.

You can't break up someone else's marriage - that decision is theirs alone. You can express the opinion that their relationship sounds abusive and even that you think they should leave. Be prepared that they might not want to hear it and may distance themselves from you as a result. Let them know that you support them and are always prepared to listen and help. Ultimately though, they have to come to the realisation for themselves.

Then there is nothing more you can do. It must be so hard.