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Am I unreasonable to be pleased that Puberty Blockers have been banned by the executive in Northern Ireland with unanimous cross-party support

142 replies

MrBungle · 10/12/2024 14:10

Children are finally being protected and medical evidence listened to rather than noise loud activists.

Everyone deserves quality, evidence lead healthcare, especially children, that gender questioning youths have been so badly let down the last 20 years is a stain on the UK's history as bad as infected blood.

Now we need comprehensive, holistic mental health support for these desperate children.

https://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/politics/executive-unanimously-backs-health-ministers-plan-to-ban-puberty-blockers-in-northern-ireland-4902683

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Pippa246 · 13/12/2024 11:29

JHound · 10/12/2024 16:52

I honestly don’t care.

I think this should be a topic for gender questioning children, their parents and medical professionals.

As somebody who is in none of those categories whether they are allowed or prohibited is not my concern.

Do you think the same about rape, trafficking, sexual abuse….etc….

Helleofabore · 13/12/2024 11:38

Marcus Evans paper

www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-bulletin/article/freedom-to-think-the-need-for-thorough-assessment-and-treatment-of-gender-dysphoric-children/F4B7F5CAFC0D0BE9FF3C7886BA6E904B

Many interesting links but worth remembering this:

Evans said: During the 1980s, I led a parasuicide service in King's College Hospital, London, and treated a number of individuals who had self-harmed or attempted suicide after gender reassignment surgery. These patients had a history of serious and enduring mental illness and/or a personality disorder. Having developed a late-onset gender dysphoria, they were often angry at the loss of their biological sexual functioning and aggrieved with psychiatric services, which they felt had failed to examine their motivations for requesting reassignment surgery and/or to adequately investigate their psychological difficulties. A common theme in their presentations was a belief that physical treatments would remove or resolve aspects of themselves that caused them psychic pain. When the medical intervention failed to remove these psychological problems, the disappointment led to an escalation of self-harm and suicidal ideation, as resentment and hatred towards themselves were acted out in relation to their bodies.

And

Winston also highlights how often medical transition may not meet the expectations of patients:
‘He said 40 per cent of people who undergo vaginal reconstruction surgery experience complications as a result, and many need further surgery, and 23 per cent of people who have their breasts removed “feel uncomfortable with what they've done”. He added: “What I've been seeing in a fertility clinic are the long-term results of often very unhappy people who now feel quite badly damaged. “One has to consider when you're doing any kind of medicine where you're trying to do good not harm, and looking at the long-term effects of what you might be doing, and for me that is really a very important warning sign.” He added that the long-term effects of taking hormones “are likely to affect reproductive function”.’

___

Gender-Affirming Care Is Dangerous. I Know Because I Helped Pioneer It.’
https://www.thefp.com/p/gender-affirming-care-dangerous-finland-doctor

From Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala, Finnish Psychiatrist who developed the treatment plans for Finnish Gender Clinics.

And

Here is Dr Az Hazeem saying he had about 26% of his patients regretted transitioning.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

He said 26 per cent of his patients at the Tavistock and Portman regretted transitioning.

A documentary on the Dutch Protocol

There are currently almost 3,000 young people on the waiting list for gender care in the Netherlands. They are vulnerable adolescents who are frequently subjected to discrimination. Many of them suffer severe mental distress. Doctors at the gender clinic in Amsterdam are pioneers in care for transgender young people. The treatment developed here years ago is now used worldwide. Now, criticism is growing. International experts are questioning the scientific evidence put forward by the clinicians in Amsterdam. Zembla investigates the Dutch transgender protocol.

What this covers is that no gender clinic has been able to replicate the results of the Dutch paper. One patient of the group died due to the surgery complications of gender surgery and even de Vries questioned why no one seemed interested in that patient while accepting the study. Dr Riittakerttu Kaltiala (Professor of Pschyiatry, Tampere and who set up gender clinics) and Mikael Landen (Professor of Pscyhiatry, Gotenberg) and Dr Angela Samfjord (Head of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the University of Gotenberg ) all are interviewed about the quality of the study behind the protocol and its flaws that became apparent later. Ie. The 55 patients is so small and de Vries acknowledges that they are not really similar to todays cohort of adolescent transitioners. That only 32 filled in the survey with positive results. The others were not chased up and one died.

Gerard van Breukelen, a professor of Methodology at Maastricht university goes on record to say that the methodology of that initial study was weak. There was no control group so the conclusions should not have been considered as strong as the gender clinicians claimed. Other academics declined to be interviewed due to fear for their employment as it is such a contentious issue. When talking to de Vries, she mentions that many more studies have been done by other countries now. And the doco makers mention that all those studies de Vries refer to have stated that the evidence is low quality. A Swedish team led by Landen was asked to do a full review by the Swedish government and he confirms that the evidence was just not there. Hence the Swedish government withdrew treatment.

The mention the Cass review and discussion ‘locking in’ of identities contradicts the ‘time to think’ narrative. They interview three transitioners. One detransitionered before surgery and one is happy with transition but not with the process the team followed. The one who detransitioned was put on hormones despite not even socially transitioning as he felt wearing a dress was ‘a man wearing a dress’. But was put on hormones but didn’t go through surgery after all. It also wraps up with Lucy who was stuck on the waiting list and who believes that if she was given PBs, she would not have ended up transitioning. She has obviously detransitioned now after double mastectomy and testosterone, then ovaries and uterus removal.

_

The newly released peer reviewed reanalysis of the UK study. McPherson & Freedman both worked on the initial analysis of the patient clinical data.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0092623X.2023.2281986

Psychological Outcomes of 12–15-Year-Olds with Gender Dysphoria Receiving Pubertal Suppression in the UK: Assessing Reliable and Clinically Significant Change

Susan McPherson & David E. P. Freedman

Published online: 29 Nov 2023

Abstract

The evidence base for psychological benefits of GnRHA for adolescents with gender dysphoria (GD) was deemed “low quality” by the UK National Institute of Health and Care Excellence. Limitations identified include inattention to clinical importance of findings. This secondary analysis of UK clinical study data uses Reliable and Clinically Significant Change approaches to address this gap. The original uncontrolled study collected data within a specialist GD service. Participants were 44 12–15-year-olds with GD. Puberty was suppressed using “triptorelin”; participants were followed-up for 36 months. Secondary analysis used data from parent-report Child Behavior Checklists and Youth Self-Report forms. Reliable change results: 15–34% of participants reliably deteriorated depending on the subscale, time point and parent versus child report. Clinically significant change results: 27–58% were in the borderline (subclinical) or clinical range at baseline (depending on subscale and parent or child report). Rates of clinically significant change ranged from 0 to 35%, decreasing over time toward zero on both self-report and parent-report. The approach offers an established complementary method to analyze individual level change and to examine who might benefit or otherwise from treatment in a field where research designs have been challenged by lack of control groups and low sample sizes.

Helleofabore · 13/12/2024 11:43

Sorry about the length.

Each post may contain multiple links to completely different studies or papers coming form different aspects.

Ovalframes · 13/12/2024 11:57

Safeguarding children should be important to everyone. Every time a child is harmed, whether by their family or a stranger, questions are asked and everyone says lessons must be learned. Well many questions have been asked and the lessons are staring us in the face.

SophieStrange · 13/12/2024 14:48

It’s so very difficult to form a view on this, because there isn’t an resolution to the issue that won’t causes sadness for someone.

The thing I’d emphasise would be to note the political and media figures who have led the campaign against the availability of puberty blockers. Most of them are social conservatives who have not historically been on our side over reproductive rights, equal pay and conditions, etc, and not on that of respect for evidence-based science and medicine either.

So I absolutely don’t believe the good faith of the right or the religious when they claim to care for women’s safety, and I’ve the strong suspicion that whatever side of an ethical argument the Daily Mail and The Spectator put themselves on the likely to be the wrong one.

MrBungle · 13/12/2024 15:01

SophieStrange · 13/12/2024 14:48

It’s so very difficult to form a view on this, because there isn’t an resolution to the issue that won’t causes sadness for someone.

The thing I’d emphasise would be to note the political and media figures who have led the campaign against the availability of puberty blockers. Most of them are social conservatives who have not historically been on our side over reproductive rights, equal pay and conditions, etc, and not on that of respect for evidence-based science and medicine either.

So I absolutely don’t believe the good faith of the right or the religious when they claim to care for women’s safety, and I’ve the strong suspicion that whatever side of an ethical argument the Daily Mail and The Spectator put themselves on the likely to be the wrong one.

There is a resolution @SophieStrange - it’s for people to come to terms with who they are and be at peace with themselves - rather than trying to change something that by definition cannot change and they remain as unhappy if not more than before.

I was a never Tory person, and this whole affair has pushed me away from my natural people because of the willfull and destructive blindness of the left. This is not a right left issue it’s just the left has a habit of conformity which has meant people could not ask questions.

OP posts:
TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:06

SophieStrange · 13/12/2024 14:48

It’s so very difficult to form a view on this, because there isn’t an resolution to the issue that won’t causes sadness for someone.

The thing I’d emphasise would be to note the political and media figures who have led the campaign against the availability of puberty blockers. Most of them are social conservatives who have not historically been on our side over reproductive rights, equal pay and conditions, etc, and not on that of respect for evidence-based science and medicine either.

So I absolutely don’t believe the good faith of the right or the religious when they claim to care for women’s safety, and I’ve the strong suspicion that whatever side of an ethical argument the Daily Mail and The Spectator put themselves on the likely to be the wrong one.

I think this is very flawed reasoning and one that is likely to lead to very problematic outcomes. Don't you have your own brain and conscience to think for yourself? Why outsource such an important question to your 'tribe'?

For me, the question is not 'why does the right question puberty blockers for children', but why the left doesn't.

All correct thinking people should want children's medicines to be properly tested and overseen - right?

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:08

And for anyone who thinks that the progressive left always calls things right, here's a cautionary tale for you ...

www.spiegel.de/international/germany/past-pedophile-links-haunt-german-green-party-a-899544.html

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:09

The left has been extraordinary tribal on this issue. I'm not sure why, it's been shocking to witness.

borntobequiet · 13/12/2024 15:14

SophieStrange · 13/12/2024 14:48

It’s so very difficult to form a view on this, because there isn’t an resolution to the issue that won’t causes sadness for someone.

The thing I’d emphasise would be to note the political and media figures who have led the campaign against the availability of puberty blockers. Most of them are social conservatives who have not historically been on our side over reproductive rights, equal pay and conditions, etc, and not on that of respect for evidence-based science and medicine either.

So I absolutely don’t believe the good faith of the right or the religious when they claim to care for women’s safety, and I’ve the strong suspicion that whatever side of an ethical argument the Daily Mail and The Spectator put themselves on the likely to be the wrong one.

It’s really not difficult to form an opinion on the use of un-evidenced medical and surgical treatments used off-label to treat a condition that is poorly defined and comorbid with many other psychological/psychiatric difficulties that are not being properly addressed, and that may lead to life long lack of sexual function and possible sterility.

Also, there is nothing inherently wrong in being a social conservative, and social progressives haven’t always driven policy that benefits women and girls, for example, by taking a relaxed attitude to pornography and promoting sex positivity.

I read neither the DM nor the Spectator on a regular basis, but they’re not always wrong about everything.

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:17

Also, it's not even accurate to say that the voices in favour of reviewing puberty blockers are right leaning. Most of the most prominent GCs are classically left. It's just that as soon as people start standing up for children's rights to a normal puberty, the left 'expels' and de-platforms them.

ManxHumanFemale · 13/12/2024 15:25

But @SophieStrange, the politican putting the mockers on unfettered access to puberty blockers for children in the United Kingdom (and by extension, for children dependent on those same services bought by the Isle of Man and the RoI) is the left-wing Labour Secretary of State, Wes Streeting.

The left-wing Labour government has stopped this, indefinitely. A few damp squibs spluttered in the House of Commons, but it has been decisively removed by the Labour government as any kind of programme.

No-one has resigned over it as far as I am aware, either on the Labour benches or those of the Greens or the Lib Dems. The left-of-centre is accepting of this. There is cross-party acceptance.

BodyKeepingScore · 13/12/2024 15:26

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:17

Also, it's not even accurate to say that the voices in favour of reviewing puberty blockers are right leaning. Most of the most prominent GCs are classically left. It's just that as soon as people start standing up for children's rights to a normal puberty, the left 'expels' and de-platforms them.

I personally have always been left leaning, it’s remarkable how many people have declared me “far right” because of my views on this one specific issue. Despite being firmly left in almost all my other political opinions…

PipeworksCopper · 13/12/2024 15:38

BodyKeepingScore · 13/12/2024 15:26

I personally have always been left leaning, it’s remarkable how many people have declared me “far right” because of my views on this one specific issue. Despite being firmly left in almost all my other political opinions…

Same here!

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:41

BodyKeepingScore · 13/12/2024 15:26

I personally have always been left leaning, it’s remarkable how many people have declared me “far right” because of my views on this one specific issue. Despite being firmly left in almost all my other political opinions…

I mean, not even 'centre' or 'right' but trying to make out that reasonable opinions are akin to the Nazis.

The tactics utilised towards people questioning the narrative have been extraordinary. You've got to wonder what's going on.

ManxHumanFemale · 13/12/2024 15:47

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 15:41

I mean, not even 'centre' or 'right' but trying to make out that reasonable opinions are akin to the Nazis.

The tactics utilised towards people questioning the narrative have been extraordinary. You've got to wonder what's going on.

I see that Moira Deeming in Australia, which is abundant in trans-rights activism, just won her defamation case on precisely this issue.

There are MN threads on it including a new one about the recent ruling (that I think was just yesterday?)

TheKeatingFive · 13/12/2024 16:05

ManxHumanFemale · 13/12/2024 15:47

I see that Moira Deeming in Australia, which is abundant in trans-rights activism, just won her defamation case on precisely this issue.

There are MN threads on it including a new one about the recent ruling (that I think was just yesterday?)

Yes, thankfully

What an awful case

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