Page 39 | Assisted Dying

Nordione1 · 2024-11-29T18:05:16+00:00

I dont know what section to put this in. Im more upset about the vote for it than I thought I'd be. I feel like we have crossed a rubicon somehow.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 20:28

DozeeMare · 01/12/2024 19:11

The problem is that social and palliative has fallen way short for many decades (coinciding, incidentally, with the beginning of privatisation of the NHS) now and has worsened. It is not getting better; quite the opposite. There simply isn't the billions of pounds that would be needed for it to improve or to offer people a 'package'.

I followed the story of former nurse Elaine Hudson, who had motor neurone disease, and who asked The Times to document her death by starvation before Friday’s vote. Her brother said before the vote “Our politicians are getting this one tragically wrong, trying to protect the one person that maybe [is] coerced … at the expense of the 99 that need to be able to choose a more appropriate death.” For Elaine, taking the “barbaric” and “only legal route” to a voluntary death available to her in Britain at the time, was her only option.

Before she refused food and drink, she WAS getting palliative care but even with that she was choking on her own saliva and was in excruciating pain, and shehad spelled out "I want pain free and dead" to the consultant.

We talk about having choices in life, and I for one would like to have the choice of shortening my death if and when the time comes.

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I am sorry to hear about this nurse. My DH's uncle died on MND. He begged his wife to smother him with a pillow but obvs she couldn't help him die so he had all the late symptoms including choking on his own saliva. Horrendous.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 20:39

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 18:50

You have no evidence AD legislation would go down any path other than the one legislated for and to claim you do is just scare mongering.

No evidence apart from all the other developed, western, democratic countries that have gone down the path ahead of us. Funny how those in favour of AD are all like other countries have this, we are so far behind, we can learn from them as they are doing it so well. Then when the dark truth is posted about how it’s not going at all well and there is serious concern to alarm, the it’s like oh, no evidence it won’t work, we aren’t them, we are British and so obviously we will do it Better, so nothing to see here.

So no actual evidence then. Just your speculation.

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 20:40

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 19:49

What a load of tripe (and that isn't a word I use lightly). My father had dementia. He made decisions while he retained capacity after he got dementia diagnosis and before his Consultant diagnosed he had lost capacity. Do you think family members would allow someone to hold down their relative and kill them in the circumstances you describe? And in any case, the Bill only permits an adult WITH CAPACITY and prognosis of 6 months or less to live to request AD which 2 doctors and a judge have to agree to. The Bill does NOT allow someone to give an Advance Directive and be given AD years later. Please stop scare mongering. It isn't helpful and it isn't an accurate description of the Bill

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Why not read through my posts?

I am talking about Holland. I thought that was quite clear. Someone said it wouldn't be possible under the bill to kill those with dementia (implying it was a shame as they would want that for themselves if they were able to give an advance directive) and I said it was happening in Holland and posted an article from the Guardian about it.

Then another poster asked how I knew that the person in Holland hadn't wanted to be killed if they didn't have capacity so I explained. Have a read of the Guardian article I posted. I haven't exaggerated.

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 20:45

Oh and someone definitely did allow their relative to be killed in the circumstances that I describe. It was in a purportedly civilised European country called Holland that is not a million miles away. They started down this road in 2002.

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 20:52

I think we need to ban cars as people drive eratically and kill people . I also think we should ban paracetamols because some people buy a shit load and take them and try and kill themselves. I also think we need to ban booze as alcoholics are a problem.
So while I get all the scare mongering again it's not ending is it . On and bloody on tell me why we shouldn't ban all what I said for the good of people

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 20:53

I don't see why it is such an outrageous thought that decent palliative care must be offered as an alternative before assisted suicide is allowed. I think that would be a much better idea.

I would I think only be really in favour of the proposal if it was not just for terminal illnesses but for cases where palliative and end of life care even when applied properly isn't able to alleviate a person's suffering.

I'd defer to an expert about when that might be the case but I'd certainly accept that could happen and I am very sympathetic to posters on this thread who have spoken about experiences with MND or progressive lung diseases.

And I am properly horrified about what is going on in Holland and Canada.

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 20:55

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 20:53

I don't see why it is such an outrageous thought that decent palliative care must be offered as an alternative before assisted suicide is allowed. I think that would be a much better idea.

I would I think only be really in favour of the proposal if it was not just for terminal illnesses but for cases where palliative and end of life care even when applied properly isn't able to alleviate a person's suffering.

I'd defer to an expert about when that might be the case but I'd certainly accept that could happen and I am very sympathetic to posters on this thread who have spoken about experiences with MND or progressive lung diseases.

And I am properly horrified about what is going on in Holland and Canada.

Leila moran mp said the other day the challenge for labour is to put a plan about palliative care. I believe they will do this debate had forced that debate. Palliative care wouldn't have eveb been debated if this bill debate hadn't happened

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 20:57

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 20:40

Why not read through my posts?

I am talking about Holland. I thought that was quite clear. Someone said it wouldn't be possible under the bill to kill those with dementia (implying it was a shame as they would want that for themselves if they were able to give an advance directive) and I said it was happening in Holland and posted an article from the Guardian about it.

Then another poster asked how I knew that the person in Holland hadn't wanted to be killed if they didn't have capacity so I explained. Have a read of the Guardian article I posted. I haven't exaggerated.

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Why not read through my posts? I am talking about the UK. I don't live in the Netherlands and the Netherlands has no jurisdiction on British law.

ThisAquaCrow · 01/12/2024 20:59

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 20:52

I think we need to ban cars as people drive eratically and kill people . I also think we should ban paracetamols because some people buy a shit load and take them and try and kill themselves. I also think we need to ban booze as alcoholics are a problem.
So while I get all the scare mongering again it's not ending is it . On and bloody on tell me why we shouldn't ban all what I said for the good of people

Accidental death from a car crash is rarely a deliberate act to end a life.

Suicide by self administered overdose is an act of independent agency.

Alcoholism is a disease of addiction.

I’m struggling to understand what point you are again trying to make. Perhaps if you considered and countered some of the information that has been shared which demonstrates some of the concerns about the proposed bill, that would be more beneficial?

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 21:00

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 20:39

So no actual evidence then. Just your speculation.

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Sigh. It’s not speculation the number of people euthanised without their consent under very similar laws and procedures to the U.K. bill.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:02

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 21:00

Sigh. It’s not speculation the number of people euthanised without their consent under very similar laws and procedures to the U.K. bill.

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Which is not in the UK bill (ironic sigh)

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 21:05

ThisAquaCrow · 01/12/2024 20:59

Accidental death from a car crash is rarely a deliberate act to end a life.

Suicide by self administered overdose is an act of independent agency.

Alcoholism is a disease of addiction.

I’m struggling to understand what point you are again trying to make. Perhaps if you considered and countered some of the information that has been shared which demonstrates some of the concerns about the proposed bill, that would be more beneficial?

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Oh my God, it's also very obvious the point I am making the point is with good intentions, such as driving for good intentions. There will be bad accidents that happen, but we do not ban driving even though it kills people. We don't ban alcohol even though rightly, as you say alcoholism is a disease.I don't know if you're deliberately been a bit dense. We know it's a disease, but we do not ban booze altogether. So what I am saying, it's the unintended consequences you might be right, could end up being like canada, I don't think it will be because I think were able to make a better law.
However, that should not mean that people should not have the choice to die. This never-ending circle of people trying to claim. If we have that, it means we will get that might happen. It also happens that there's a lot of risks involved with so many things that we have, but we don't ban everything..

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 21:06

ThisAquaCrow · 01/12/2024 20:59

Accidental death from a car crash is rarely a deliberate act to end a life.

Suicide by self administered overdose is an act of independent agency.

Alcoholism is a disease of addiction.

I’m struggling to understand what point you are again trying to make. Perhaps if you considered and countered some of the information that has been shared which demonstrates some of the concerns about the proposed bill, that would be more beneficial?

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I am very aware painfully a word because you guys have not stopped talking about it of what could happen, but I am also aware that there are so many things that could happen with so many things that we allow the fact remains that only 4% of deaths in Canada is done by the assisted. Dying. Four percent, so we're not even talking the majority of deaths

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:08

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 20:57

Why not read through my posts? I am talking about the UK. I don't live in the Netherlands and the Netherlands has no jurisdiction on British law.

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I have read your posts. You told me I was talking a load of tripe when I explained to another poster what I meant when I was talking about a case in Holland.

But I wasn't talking a load of tripe. I was saying nothing but the factual truth.

I thought you must have misunderstood my post.

If you knew all along I was talking about Holland but and just thought it was irrelevant why accuse me of talking tripe?

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to start insulting them.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:12

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:08

I have read your posts. You told me I was talking a load of tripe when I explained to another poster what I meant when I was talking about a case in Holland.

But I wasn't talking a load of tripe. I was saying nothing but the factual truth.

I thought you must have misunderstood my post.

If you knew all along I was talking about Holland but and just thought it was irrelevant why accuse me of talking tripe?

Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to start insulting them.

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because you were and that's my opinion and I am allowed to have my opinion

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:21

@GranPepper In Holland people with dementia can be killed by doctors. If they have an advance directive saying they want this to happen then this is perfectly legal even if they no longer wish to die.

Despite the fact that what I am saying is the law in Holland (and anyone can look this up) according to you it's a load of old tripe and even if it wasn't it doesn't matter becuase it's in Holland.

I guess you are, as you say, entitled to your opinion.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:35

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:21

@GranPepper In Holland people with dementia can be killed by doctors. If they have an advance directive saying they want this to happen then this is perfectly legal even if they no longer wish to die.

Despite the fact that what I am saying is the law in Holland (and anyone can look this up) according to you it's a load of old tripe and even if it wasn't it doesn't matter becuase it's in Holland.

I guess you are, as you say, entitled to your opinion.

Edited

Advanced directives are not in the UK Bill. They may be in the Netherlands (Holland was ditched by the Dutch Govt a few years ago. I grew up being taught Holland but it isn't Holland any more just as Bombay is now Mumbai). But the Netherlands is not the UK and has no jurisdiction over the UK. We are talking about the Kim Leadbeater Private Members Bill. Not what the law is in the Netherlands.

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:38

So you would agree then that what I have been saying is correct (rather than tripe) it's just that I should have said the Netherlands rather than Holland and you don't think it is relevant?

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:40

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:38

So you would agree then that what I have been saying is correct (rather than tripe) it's just that I should have said the Netherlands rather than Holland and you don't think it is relevant?

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No. I think what you said was irrelevant and was not correct in a UK setting.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 21:43

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:02

Which is not in the UK bill (ironic sigh)

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Sorry what? None of the laws and procedures legalise euthanasia without consent, the point is just having a law saying consent and capacity is required doesn’t stop coercion.

I am sure you are familiar with other crimes that suffer the same problem? As in if you have sex with someone without capacity and their consent, you have raped them. Tell me, does the law requiring this prevent rape?

ThisAquaCrow · 01/12/2024 21:44

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 21:05

Oh my God, it's also very obvious the point I am making the point is with good intentions, such as driving for good intentions. There will be bad accidents that happen, but we do not ban driving even though it kills people. We don't ban alcohol even though rightly, as you say alcoholism is a disease.I don't know if you're deliberately been a bit dense. We know it's a disease, but we do not ban booze altogether. So what I am saying, it's the unintended consequences you might be right, could end up being like canada, I don't think it will be because I think were able to make a better law.
However, that should not mean that people should not have the choice to die. This never-ending circle of people trying to claim. If we have that, it means we will get that might happen. It also happens that there's a lot of risks involved with so many things that we have, but we don't ban everything..

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You may be interested in looking at the ethical approaches of consequentialism and deontology. That might help you to frame your points in a slightly more coherent manner.
They are ethical frameworks which consider if an action is justifiable based on the potential or actual consequences of that action OR if the action itself is justifiable because the act itself is intrinsically right.

That will hopefully allow you to put forward arguments without resorting to insults.

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 21:47

ThisAquaCrow · 01/12/2024 21:44

You may be interested in looking at the ethical approaches of consequentialism and deontology. That might help you to frame your points in a slightly more coherent manner.
They are ethical frameworks which consider if an action is justifiable based on the potential or actual consequences of that action OR if the action itself is justifiable because the act itself is intrinsically right.

That will hopefully allow you to put forward arguments without resorting to insults.

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I agree the very idea that one can coerce/bully sometime into suicide is doing it accidentally with the best of intentions just like a car accident is patently incoherent.

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:49

We're on to rape law now, are we? You're off speaking about Advance Directives (which don't apply in the Bill) and on to rape? I remind you this is a thread about AD Bill from Kim Leadbeater. Not rape law. Not Advance Directives. Not what happens in other countries. Kim Leadbeater's Bill.

Littlemissgobby · 01/12/2024 21:53

SugarandSpiceandAllThingsNaice · 01/12/2024 21:47

I agree the very idea that one can coerce/bully sometime into suicide is doing it accidentally with the best of intentions just like a car accident is patently incoherent.

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No its not its the same so maybe someone encourages someone yourwords bare in mind atm the law will be 6 months to live what about the other 99 percent who now don't suffer and get a choice to die how they want to.
Just like driving and doing it correctly or driving without care do we ban driving for that one person who kills by a car
To me it is similar you can't see that that's fine but it really is

ScatolaNera · 01/12/2024 21:54

GranPepper · 01/12/2024 21:40

No. I think what you said was irrelevant and was not correct in a UK setting.

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Well I never at any point said or indicated I was talking about a UK setting did I?

I was replying to a poster who asked about advance directives to say they were used in the Netherlands and were not a good thing.

Do you think that you ought to be able to dictate the terms on which other people are allowed to discuss this matter?