To think it’s toxic to say a mother has post natal depression…

[Urghh11]

As an automatic response to hating the baby or toddler stage?

I adore dd but honestly… so much of caring for her is a fucking slog. If I dare to mention it then often it’s ‘are you sure you’re not depressed.’ No… I’m just sick of being woken at the crack of dawn and having food thrown round my house, you know?

I know it’s important to allow women to feel supported where a mental illness may be at play but can we also normalise just not always liking being a parent and that not automatically mean depression?!

Absolutely! My DC are grown up now so this is ancient history, but I didn't enjoy the baby stage. Don't get me wrong, it was full of special moments, but so much of it was just domestic drudgery - endless washing/cleaning up/lack of sleep, etc. I did not have any mental health issues.

Agree with this! I felt I had to avoid saying I was fed up with being tired, ready to jump up and take care of whatever new mess at any given moment, to leave a shop if DC started screaming etc. On top of which, people love to comment if they think they would do something differently. It can be a rubbish stage, let's be honest!

It's not toxic though is it, it's concern. I actually did have PND but thought it was tiredness, frustration etc. Took a few weeks longer to get help and treatment because I was trying to look 'normal'. Just be glad you aren't ill.

It is toxic. Not least because you can have PND and not find it much of a slog at all. It can manifest in very different ways.

Hating the baby stage- we’ve all been there
Hating the baby- cause for concern

But suggesting PND might be at play isn’t toxic- it’s one of the possibilities and pointing that out can be helpful as it’s not easy to tell when you’re in it. I realise it can feel dismissive if that’s not you- women are allowed to have negative emotions without it being put down to a mental health issue- but it’s also a real possibility and one that is often undiagnosed.

So, let's not talk about PND because it manifests in different ways? That makes no sense to me.

Would have helped if somebody had asked why I was finding it all a bit shit rather than pushing medication on me. I'd probably have got round to telling them I was being bounced off every wall in arguments about why I thought I deserved to eat more than a single sandwich a day.

Yes it can manifest in different ways , including feeling tired and fed up.

How is it toxic to show some concern?
Maybe OP doesn’t have PND but some with those symptoms will.

Should we all turn a blind eye and be totally uncaring ?
Does the same apply for suicide in your mind ?

Is it toxic to ask if someone is ok ?

How weird has society become ?! So cold and lacking in empathy.

I think op is getting some unfair criticism here. She hasn't said not to talk about PND she's just said to normalise not loving the baby stage as well as supporting those with PND.

PND is common and debilitating. It's not toxic to check in on mothers' mental health. If you are really hating ALL of it and not getting any joy out of parenting then it might be a good idea to get some support as that's not normal.

I’m not sure, the tone is aggressive, so it feels more than hating the baby stage, the fucking sick of being woken early and food being thrown. That caring for your child is a fucking slog.

id also be concerned and no I don’t think it should be normalised to talk and feel like this.

We all understand what she’s saying, we simply don’t agree we should normalise feeling like the op does.

I wish someone had pointed out that I did then maybe I could have got some help much sooner.

Women have an ever present internal shame because we’ve spent our whole lives been told we’re not good enough. I’d rather help women then enable that shame by pretending everything is fine.

I think it’s the title to be honest.

I agree with OP arguing that we should normalise not enjoying or not loving any stage of parenting.

I don’t agree with OP that it is “toxic” to suggest someone might be suffering from PND if they don’t enjoy the early parenting stages. I would say it was more toxic to not suggest it as a possibility. No harm done if it’s not PND, lots of potential harm if it is PND that otherwise might be missed.

It’s fine to have days that are hard, but if you dread getting up everyday and doing the same routine and don’t really enjoy being a parent, is that depression or just not enjoying being a parent?

For me, PND was a completely different beast compared to other depression. I'm really glad MN was around then to suggest to me that I got some help for it, because I really was in a bad way.

I do get your point, and I agree that it is normal to have a shit time, but I needed other people to recognise what was happening to me. PND is so insidious in how it affects your perception that I think it's really useful to actively look out for it in mothers with very young children.

While I see where you're coming from, I think it's more important that we 'normalise' (for want of a better word) PND so that there is less stigma associated with it and women aren't afraid to reach out for help.

Who said this about you and why don't you like them?

I hated the baby stage, didn't have PND and have still asked more than one friend who was struggling if they thought they should speak to their GP. Because it's important to normalise it. One of DH's colleagues died through suicide because of PND, it's not a minor thing.

“Toxic” is a bit much, I wouldn’t say it’s that. “Disproportionate” would be a better word for me. It’s completely normal to mind sleeplessness, drudgery, repetitive mundanity. There’s no need to jump to “is your mental health ok?” if you express this.

I always thought the saying it was pnd was minimising the depression but post natal depression is actually considered to be more serious than common or garden depression.

people are asking because it’s so very serious.

Years ago it wasn't talked about, that's why I didn't know what was wrong with me. I'm glad these days people check in with mums when they seem to be struggling.

That's the thing, though. The message can come across as, either you must love the baby stage or you have PND. It's more helpful if mums can open without that being the only possible assumption, otherwise it could put them off discussing something they're struggling with, whatever the cause.

I do wonder sometimes what is just situational depression and what is pnd? Because I knew I was depressed because I was sleep deprived, grieving my old life, worried about being responsible for a baby, feeling isolated, in pain with birth injuries etc. Medication didn't work for me but I honestly think it's because I was just depressed due to the situation.

Mine are teenagers but I think it's perfectly reasonable to suggest that how you feel after giving birth may not be depression but a rationale response to an unbearable situation.

You take women who have had established support groups at work and rip them away from that, isolate them for the bulk of their day (because friends and fathers are at work and family are far away), deprive them of sleep, don't feed them properly and then wonder why they feel shit. Early parenthood is brutal on women, they should be surrounded by people who can help and support them. Frankly I'd rather go through another lockdown with my busy household and work than experience the early days of motherhood again. And I hated lockdown.