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Jeremy Clarkson is damaging farmers

244 replies

Pippyls67 · 26/11/2024 11:17

He should butt out of the inheritance tax debacle. As Victoria Derbyshire reminded him during the London protests, he admitted in news print, when he bought his farm it was to dodge inheritance tax. Now he’s jumping in the back of farmers who probably won’t in actual fact pay very much ( smaller farms than his) for his own mercenary agenda. Farmers need to distance themselves from him and ban him from public events. He’s muddying their message and making them look bad by association. Ps I understand farmers need their farms intact to pass on but tbh we all need to pass on our wealth. I run a business and it’ll be screwed by inheritance tax to some extent. I don’t like it but you have to get on with it. That’s just the way of things isn’t it. Gotta pay for the NHS, schools and essential services from somewhere. Farms will need to sell assets I get it. Yes the largest farms will shrink in size but you just have to diversify to make up the difference if you want the same level of income. That’s what we do in business. Also it will make (potentially) land available for incomers to the industry. Lack of new blood and chances to enter farming have been an issue for many years. This is partly a consequence of even the largest farms being ‘handed down’ intact.

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DogInATent · 26/11/2024 14:43

taxguru · 26/11/2024 14:40

@MonkeyToHeaven

So who should be paying for our education, healthcare, public services, welfare, farming subsidies and land grants?

Tackling tax evasion, money laundering, illegal employment, "cash in hand" jobs, drug dealing, prostitution, organised crime, "duty free" sales of alcohol and cigarettes "under the counter" in shops and pubs, "cash in hand" work, unregistered traders, etc etc. would raise billions - far more than the millions raised from the farmers IHT grab, and would have loads of other benefits too, i.e. tacking unsafe/illegal working, etc.

The governmental figure for loss of tax revenue due to the "black economy" is several billion per year - other estimates of all tax evasion suggest tens of billions per year. It's a HUGE problem.

John Smith is wealthy, obscenely wealthy. He 'invests' £10m in some farmland. Then he dies. His son, John Jnr, inherits, sells the land without capital gain (for convenience of the example) for £10m, and pockets £10m (less legal fees) into his bank account. Neatly avoiding £4m (assuming allowances are used up on other parts of the inheritance) of IHT that he would have due if it had been a cash inheritance.

Are you saying this was right and should be allowed? Because something, something, black market cigarettes...

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:44

Pat888 · 26/11/2024 13:14

the Gov has held fast over the image of shivering WW2 veterans dying in droves from hypothermia due to losing their WFA -I don’t see them giving in to complaining farmers.

WW2 veterans? The youngest (those 16 in 1945) are 95 or 96 now. There are very, very few of them and they’ll likely be on pension credit if they have no other income than the pension (it’s linked to pension changes).
What a daft comment.

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:46

Bollihobs · 26/11/2024 13:20

@Pippyls67 "he admitted in news print, when he bought his farm it was to dodge inheritance tax. "

As he pointed out to VD his actual statement was that he bought the farm because he wanted to shoot and it was a bonus that it came with the tax benefits that it did.

No, that’s what he’s changed the story to now. Originally he said he did it just for the IHT benefits. Claims he’d have been cancelled if he’d told the truth. As if he’d know the truth if it punched him in the face (like he punched an assistant at the BBC)

bombastix · 26/11/2024 14:48

I thought the NFU buggered up the protest by inviting nearly all the opposition parties to speak. Badenoch, Davey (okay no to Farage) and then Clarkson said his bit and of course he already had his anti Labour credentials baked in with silly stuff like Keir Starmer is barred from his pub.

Not only did it give Labour a perfect reason to ignore them, but support for them declined afterwards. Protest is one thing, influence quite another.

Pat888 · 26/11/2024 14:52

My problem is I don’t know who is telling the truth - the gov? The farmers? Defra?
How many farms WILL go under? How many investment companies will now sell up as there is no tax advantage thus lowering the price of land? The farmers could sell up and live off their money. Most govs for a long time have thought we should import our food as it’s cheaper -or that is the impression I have.

No one that I have seen has given the full facts
No one is making more land, since Covid people want their little safe kingdom.
Any land is valuable now.

MJOverInvestor · 26/11/2024 14:52

CTW23 · 26/11/2024 12:43

Totally agree. He may be a total knob but I personally have learnt more about farming since his show started

Is that a reason why he shouldn't pay tax like you, me and the majority of farm workers who are on PAYE?

taxguru · 26/11/2024 14:54

DogInATent · 26/11/2024 14:43

John Smith is wealthy, obscenely wealthy. He 'invests' £10m in some farmland. Then he dies. His son, John Jnr, inherits, sells the land without capital gain (for convenience of the example) for £10m, and pockets £10m (less legal fees) into his bank account. Neatly avoiding £4m (assuming allowances are used up on other parts of the inheritance) of IHT that he would have due if it had been a cash inheritance.

Are you saying this was right and should be allowed? Because something, something, black market cigarettes...

It's a numbers game. The odd rich person avoiding a few million in tax brings in nowhere near as much tax revenue as millions "working" in the black economy evading billions in tax.

It's not right that a rich person can avoid a few million, but if we're looking at tax revenue to fund public services, we need to be looking at things that have the potential to bring in huge figures, not the politics of envy to hit the odd bloke avoiding a few million, as that won't cure the public services financing problem.

It's insane that Labour have cause this narrative where everyone and the media are obsessing about relatively trivial things like VAT on private schools and IHT on farmers. It's a complete waste of politicians/government time having to keep talking about it.

The top civil servants could easily find anti-avoidance measures to target your rich guy avoiding a few million but leaving the vast majority of people unaffected, which wouldn't have gained any media traction, and could have been enacted with minimal fuss. It's exactly what happens with most other things - there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of minor tax law "tweaks" that have happened over the past few years which got a few column inches in the financial pages, nothing more.

Labour wanted to play to the "politics of envy" crowd with school vat and farmers IHT and it's bitten them on the arse.

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 14:55

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 13:25

Decided to write a post to kind of myth bust a lot of what is being said around the agricultural Inheritance Tax issue. Because this issue is important to EVERYONE and will affect all of us.
It’s going to be a long post but please read it in full.

What has changed?
So with the budget the government has removed both APR relief and BPR relief from all businesses.
APR = Agricultural Property Relief - this covers the land, the buildings and the farmhouse.
BPR = Business Property Relief - this covers the machinery, equipment, livestock, consumables such as seed and fertiliser and crop in the ground.
Now the first million of combined assets from both APR and BPR is IHT free and anything over 1 million is taxed at 20%.
Under certain conditions it MIGHT be possible for SOME farms to get up to 3 million tax free. But that doesn't work for all. It’s a case of if your circumstances meet the exact criteria your ok if not you won’t get the full 3 million.

When the government talk about 500 farms per year being affected they are only talking about the APR proportion of the tax. They have deliberately excluded talking about the fact that BPR is also included and taxed.

The NFU are saying that 75% of family farms will be affected.

• it will also include a significant number of tenant farmers as they still will be affected by BPR.
BPR will also affect a number of other industries as well.
Haulage firms, Contractors and any businesses with high asset values comparative to income will be badly affected.

At the same time subsidies are being cut by 70% in some cases
Tax on fertiliser is going up by £50 per ton.
Tax on domestic vehicles is going up over 200%
NI for employers is going up.

Why shouldn't farmers pay tax like every other business?
Because quite simply farming doesn't work like any other business does. Most businesses work out their pricing by working out the cost of production + profit and tax. They are in control of who they sell to. When component prices go up so to does the selling price.
Farming doesn't work like that. Farmers have little to no control over prices.
The combination of global markets, supermarket competition and subsidized food control the prices.
At the same time input costs and yields are not controllable either. Weather conditions play a huge role in how good the harvest is. Unless you are able to grow all your feed for your livestock there can be huge variation year to year on feed prices.

Farming is a high asset value to low income business. It is unique purely because it is a rubbish business model. But it is a necessary business. Without it quite simply we would have no food.

Why do farms make so little return?

A lot of the foods you buy are subsidised by the government and has been for decades.
if we had to pay the full costs we would have an even more serious poverty issue than we have already.

After the war in the 1950s we had a serious issue with malnutrition and issues like rickets. Food was short and expensive. The country on its knees after the horrors of the 1940s. In order to combat that the government subsidised lots of essential foods. So the public were paying artificially low prices for things like milk. They then paid the farmers a subsidy to partially make up the shortfall

For context in the 1980s people were paying approximately 25% of their household income on average on food.
Today it is approximately 13% so half.

A pint of milk was equal to two pints of beer
Now beer per pint is 13 x more expensive than a pint of milk.

If people want farmers to go back to paying IHT then they will need to double what they pay for food.

Can you afford that? Can everyone you know afford it?

It’s important to note too that even with subsidies farmers still do not get the full value of what they produce.

What about people buying land to avoid paying tax?
The likes of Clarkson and Dyson buying land is a red herring. That land is still in the business production of food. It's doing what's needed.

Many many big landowners rent agricultural land out at very reasonable rates for tenant farmers. They do so because they don't need the money for the rent (it needs to cover its cost not much more) because the payoff comes in the form of reduced IHT.

I personally know a farmer who rented land for 17 years from a landowner. Then when landowner was considering selling up he sold it to the farmer at a really good price and guaranteed the farmers mortgage!

That said though this budget will do nothing to deter those who seek to reduce their IHT bill as it will still be the cheapest way of reducing IHT bill.

But farmers voted for Brexit
farmers voted for brexit in no greater numbers percentage wise than any other profession.
Don't make sweeping judgments without actually knowing the FACTS.

Farmers are no more responsible for brexit than any other profession

What about Gifting the farm?

The trouble is you don't know when you're going to die.
If you gift it on then you can't benefit from the farm in anyway after that. So you can't pass it on and remain living in the farmhouse for example. Even if the person you pass it on to is also living there.

And what if people don't die in the right order. Farming is considered to be the most dangerous profession in the UK now. What if the oldest generation pass it on and the younger generation die first?

Putting land in trusts is also complicated. For large landowners that is probably what they will do. So therefore the very wealthy will still avoid IHT.

But for the majority of farms putting it in a trust doesn’t work because once it’s in a trust you can’t borrow against it. So you can’t raise a loan or mortgage against it. This will slow or halt development and progression.

What are the potential consequences of this?
If we lose too many family farms due to this tax then they are likely gone forever. Other farmers won’t be able to buy up all the available land - they simply don’t have the money especially now.

If food production here reduces we become even more vulnerable to the instability of global markets.
At best it would mean price hikes at worst if there were to be another major war or global disaster we could have serious food shortages. You only have to think back to the panic in 2020 with covid to see the potential for chaos.

The predicted income from this tax is approximately 500million a year.
We are currently sending 536million a year abroad to develop agriculture in other parts of the world. Brazil being one of the largest recipients of our money - Brazil is the 11th largest economy in the world.

Stop sending more money abroad and leave farmers alone

Thank you so much for typing all this out - hope it helps others understand!!

ChumpProd · 26/11/2024 14:56

It's worth noting how poorly Jeremy Clarkson spoke without a script or edit team behind him. From that point I wouldn't want him as a spokesman.
Interestingly it took a long time, reshoots and a re edit for the first series of Clarkson's Farm to be released. They just didn't get the tone right. Don't believe that what you see is instinctive, kind or from the heart genius. It's calculated and tested before it gets to you.
Countryfile is for my market town mum. We listen to Farming Today and the shipping forecast first thing. The Archers has done more for Farming over the years, they tackled mental health and loneliness for decades.

unsync · 26/11/2024 14:56

IHT is not about income dropping through having to sell land, it's about that land sale making farms unviable. Farms shouldn't have to diversify to secure income (although many already have to). Farms are the factories that produce our food. The margins are already extremely tight.

Where I used to live, the local farm diversified and they now have a vineyard covering about 12 acres. That's land that previously grew barley, wheat, rapeseed and sugar beet. You can't make bread, sugar, oil or animal feed from grapes.

If all farms change over from growing foodstuffs to something else because they have to diversify, where do you think your food is going to come from? We already import far too much. With the current geopolitical climate, its madness to jeopardise food security.

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:56

‘Politics of envy’ is such a stupid little phrase.
It’s not envy. It’s a desire to iron out loopholes which benefit the wealthy.
It also amuses me that t(e same people who use it bang on about ‘champagne socialists’ saying Labour MPs are all rich - so they wouldn’t need to be envious, would they? Makes no sense.

ChumpProd · 26/11/2024 14:57

Secretly all the young farmers locally are really pleased since it might force the older generation to hand things over in a planned way rather than hanging on for ever.

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:58

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 14:55

Thank you so much for typing all this out - hope it helps others understand!!

It really doesn’t. It’s one opinion, which is worth reading, but it doesn’t provide any evidence and a lot of it looks t9 be lifted from (probably partisan) sources.

bombastix · 26/11/2024 14:59

Give Clarkson his due. He doesn’t want to be a politician or a spokesman for anyone but himself. The NFU needed a better plan than this; it was a screw up.

derxa · 26/11/2024 14:59

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:46

No, that’s what he’s changed the story to now. Originally he said he did it just for the IHT benefits. Claims he’d have been cancelled if he’d told the truth. As if he’d know the truth if it punched him in the face (like he punched an assistant at the BBC)

The point is that only people like you who hate Jeremy Clarkson and despise farmers care why he bought it. The farm was being used to grow crops all the time.

Alphaalga · 26/11/2024 15:00

Clarkson, like most if not all farmers, is a tory-voting ignoramus happy to put his hand up for policies which put more money in his pocket by decimating the long-term economy, ignoring climate-change and pinning the blame on those with next to nothing and the labour party.

Endorsement from such a twit would look like the kiss of death to anyone with any decency or self-respect.

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 15:01

bombastix · 26/11/2024 14:48

I thought the NFU buggered up the protest by inviting nearly all the opposition parties to speak. Badenoch, Davey (okay no to Farage) and then Clarkson said his bit and of course he already had his anti Labour credentials baked in with silly stuff like Keir Starmer is barred from his pub.

Not only did it give Labour a perfect reason to ignore them, but support for them declined afterwards. Protest is one thing, influence quite another.

The rally/protest was nothing to do with NFU... it was independently put on by a handful of famers, spear headed by Olly Harrison (Olly Blogs) just so happens on the same day NFU were holding meetings with members and ministers....

DogInATent · 26/11/2024 15:01

taxguru · 26/11/2024 14:54

It's a numbers game. The odd rich person avoiding a few million in tax brings in nowhere near as much tax revenue as millions "working" in the black economy evading billions in tax.

It's not right that a rich person can avoid a few million, but if we're looking at tax revenue to fund public services, we need to be looking at things that have the potential to bring in huge figures, not the politics of envy to hit the odd bloke avoiding a few million, as that won't cure the public services financing problem.

It's insane that Labour have cause this narrative where everyone and the media are obsessing about relatively trivial things like VAT on private schools and IHT on farmers. It's a complete waste of politicians/government time having to keep talking about it.

The top civil servants could easily find anti-avoidance measures to target your rich guy avoiding a few million but leaving the vast majority of people unaffected, which wouldn't have gained any media traction, and could have been enacted with minimal fuss. It's exactly what happens with most other things - there have been dozens, if not hundreds, of minor tax law "tweaks" that have happened over the past few years which got a few column inches in the financial pages, nothing more.

Labour wanted to play to the "politics of envy" crowd with school vat and farmers IHT and it's bitten them on the arse.

Edited

You're saying it's trivial.

You're saying that one person evading millions is less damaging to society than millions evading a few thousand each.

Spoken like a true accountant that understands the cost of everything but the value of nothing. As long as the one gets away with millions, you will never persuade the millions to pay the thousands.

cardibach · 26/11/2024 15:01

derxa · 26/11/2024 14:59

The point is that only people like you who hate Jeremy Clarkson and despise farmers care why he bought it. The farm was being used to grow crops all the time.

You know I don’t despise farmers, right? We’ve talked about this topic before. Aggressive comments like this don’t help.
I do hate Clarkson though. He’s a nasty, racist bully.

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 15:02

cardibach · 26/11/2024 14:58

It really doesn’t. It’s one opinion, which is worth reading, but it doesn’t provide any evidence and a lot of it looks t9 be lifted from (probably partisan) sources.

It's real life information from the people on the ground. I don't know anyone that would disagree with anything that was written.

bombastix · 26/11/2024 15:03

RedPony1 · 26/11/2024 15:01

The rally/protest was nothing to do with NFU... it was independently put on by a handful of famers, spear headed by Olly Harrison (Olly Blogs) just so happens on the same day NFU were holding meetings with members and ministers....

Really. Then that was a very bad decision indeed. In which case I feel sorry for the NFU. They were not to blame so I hope my correction stands.

ByQuaintAzureWasp · 26/11/2024 15:09

We need food, end of. Farmers produce our food. If we rely more and more on foreign imports (as we did from Ukraine for certain things) we are heading for disaster.
If farms attract inheritance tax and they have to keep selling off land to pay tax, farland gets smaller and smaller a d supply of home grown food gets less and less.
Its madness in my opinion.
No such thing as bad publicity abd that's what Clarkson is giving the farmers.

derxa · 26/11/2024 15:09

bombastix · 26/11/2024 14:59

Give Clarkson his due. He doesn’t want to be a politician or a spokesman for anyone but himself. The NFU needed a better plan than this; it was a screw up.

The previous chair of the nfu was more effective. Minette Batters. The current incumbent is less so. It wasn’t a screw up though. It made the national news and has sparked a nationwide debate.

notanothernamechange24 · 26/11/2024 15:10

@bombastix it wasn't a bad decision at all! Farmers were going to turn up on mass anyway. They are angry and needed to be heard. The team headed up by Olly organised a location for people to meet completely with the consent of the police.
It gave them a focus and an opportunity to be heard.
The rally was held successfully. The farmer cleaned up the streets behind them and organised a mass food bank donation of tons of food to go to london food banks.

Jeremy Clarkson is damaging farmers
Jeremy Clarkson is damaging farmers
derxa · 26/11/2024 15:11

bombastix · 26/11/2024 15:03

Really. Then that was a very bad decision indeed. In which case I feel sorry for the NFU. They were not to blame so I hope my correction stands.

What a strange viewpoint and why do you care?

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