To say that if the assisted dying bill isn't passed....

[OnceUponATimeInTheWest]

that, regardless of where you personally stand on the issue, it will finally be undeniable that we do not live in a truly representative democracy at all?

Given the latest poll in the Times, it is clear that the vast majority of the population support the bill (65% for and 13% against) and yet most of the media seems to be full of story after story about this person or that coming out against it (unsurprisingly, often people with a religious background). I don't remember seeing nearly as many stories about someone telling us they support the bill. The narrative feels as though it is being steered in only one direction.

I mean, it's already fairly much clear that our elected politicians prefer to tell us what to do and what we should think, rather than actually representing our wishes. Otherwise immigration and transgender issues would not still be dominating the headlines. The fact that an amendment to remove bishops from the house of lords failed recently should also tell us that religion still plays far too much of a role in what is an overwhelmingly secular society.

If this bill fails, then anyone in future trying to tell us that we live in one of the greatest democracies in the world is, at this point, just gaslighting us.

I haf elective procedure done to get sterilised, i was in my very early 20s, and I had to see two senior surgeons because they wouldn't consider it if I didn't have lots of sign off, in case I was depressed. Or my mental illness clouded my judgement. I had to wait a year, then i had cooling off periods and multiple other hoops. For a procedure that wouldn't end my life, but rather would actually improve it. Frankly, if you think they are going to start lining people up and offing them, you're speaking from a position of enormous privilege, as you clearly haven't needed access to any complicated or difficult to access treatment. Most people understand that their would be a lot of red tape, and also it would likely only be offered to people who could prove immense suffering and who's lives were coming to a natural end in the coming weeks/months anyway.

No, because I am not saying the state should kill people at whim each individual person has the right to have a decision and they should be able to say what they want

I'm still not sure if I fully understand what you are saying is your interpretation of the bill here. I'm sure I've misunderstood somehow, so please correct me.

Are you really saying that you think the proxy can sign a declaration that then bypasses the need for any doctor to assess the person asking for assisted dying completely? That it then goes to a Judge to decide whether they agree with 'trust me bro' as enough for them to sign it off?

Quite, the checkered past of the British Empire would seem to be justification for anything at all of you take the tack of the state used to do this worse thing so what’s the problem with this other bad thing?

I literally give up there are people suffering every day it’s inhumane and I can’t see why anyone doesn’t want a choice

so that a few can have a shot at a privilege of avoiding some suffering.

Wow, people's true colours are really coming out now. Unbelievable.

This.

The whole 'right to choose' totally neglects to address all the situations where consent isn't freely given or there is undue pressure.

It comes from a position of privilege.

The way the bill is written, yes.
For the assessment in person to be a requirement, the proxy section needs a paragraph stating in legal language that the requirements in sections covering the additional assessment provisions still apply.

As written, the bill also does not require the applicant to appear before a judge and while the judge may request to see them in person, they cannot require it.

You aren't trying to listen, that's why you aren't understanding why other people disagree with you.

Respectfully Red, you need to read my thread on this topic.

Do I think businesses that produce products to sell for palliative care may be worried about this bill coming to fruition? Yes.

My mum received the very best palliative care possible in a specialist cancer hospital, they did everything within their power to help her. Yet she still endured an agonising 2 week long death that was filled with every conceivable horror imaginable when you think of a ‘cancer death’.

The family was by her bedside the entire time as we watched and waited whilst her body slowly succumbed to the disease. The moment her brain mets induced a massive stroke so began a terrifying ordeal that no pain relief, sedation or oral care could prevent. We had every drug the syringe driver could offer.

Sitting by your parent wishing for them to die quicker is a feeling you don’t forget easily. If her suffering could have been prevented as soon as her consultants said ‘there is nothing more we can do it’s just a matter of time’ then we would have avoided a traumatic event that topped off a cancer battle so cruel and evil it’s almost unbelievable.

My mums story is not the only one, it’s happening every single day to families all over the country. Needless suffering that we think is avoidable or excusable with ‘good palliative care’.

I actually didn’t read that bit what you said avoiding some suffering some people wither n absolute agony at the end. I think it’s stomach cancer. I could be wrong here. I read that one of these cancers even if you have painkillers even if they give you the most dose of morphine you will still be in a lot of pain.

Well, it is an important life lesson to learn we can’t always have what we want when the means proposed comes at a price too high for others to pay.

We can find a better way that doesn’t alleviate suffering by causing death and suffering to others.

Yes just seen some suffering pfft

Are you so fucking real? Seriously? Are you for fucking real? Do you actually understand that people don’t want this? Just because oh I just want a smarty or a piece of cake? This is because people watched loved ones really suffer and it’s disturbing. I find it so disturbing that you want people to suffer Even with palliative bloody care.

Please seek help if you are real.

Omg that is what scares me I am sorry you saw that. It really scares me so much

And with respect, that wasn't my point.

My point was that financial motivation occurs everywhere. And that we are getting caught up in a fallacy of only the private sector being motivated by money.

If you'd like to go back and re read my actual post.

Unless we acknowledge that both the private and public sector have conflicts of interest when it comes to finances then we can't put any kind of checks and balances in. Anywhere.

It's my understanding that The Catholic Church still does disallow IVF.
On the grounds that the "wasted" embryos are destroyed.
Termination is classed as an unforgivable sin and anyone assisting with an abortion is also committing mortal sin.

Shame really as they have no problem in forgiving child sex abusers.

I grew up Catholic, it saddens me deeply that I don't fit in with something that was a huge part of my cultural identity.

If someone doesn't want to have a termination or assisted suicide or doesn't want to have consensual gay sex, fine, there's no problem, no one is making them. I just wish the Church and the house of lords would quit making rules for everyone else.

Yes I know that. I have seen it. There is no doubt that some die in agony.
I just don’t agree assisted dying is the way to solve this problem.
Other countries have taken this course and the result has been that many innocents end up losing their lives as a consequence of alleviating some suffering.

It’s a bit like why we don’t allow people to sell organs. The black market it creates means people murdered for their organs, even though the people that need organs end up having a better chance of not dying or ending suffering and living full healthy lives.

I find it disturbing that the only person that matters is the one you see. Not the ones that don't have advocates and are just easy to kill off because no one gives a shit about them.

In the eyes of the laws we are all equal.

Except of course. We are not. Not in practice.

That's the point.

In theory I think people should have a choice but in reality I think the potential for abuse and coercion is too much.

Watching people suffer is awful but I'm afraid I think people potentially being coerced into ending their life is slightly more awful.

Thank you for saying this so much better than I could.

I find it disturbing you are ignoring the many deaths of innocents that will come with this as it has happened everywhere that has legalised this.

Are their lives worth so little to you?

And why should the discomfort of seeing the reality of death trump another’s right to life?

Grow up. Death is called the grim reaper for a reason. If you truly want to make death better for some people, put your focus on a way that does not involve others paying for it with their lives.

OK, I'm out then.

Have a good evening.

Have you ever experienced a loved one dying in agony?

You don’t think having the ability to make a decision whether to face an agonising death or spare yourself the the horror is a reasonable right to have?