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To say that if the assisted dying bill isn't passed....

822 replies

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 24/11/2024 14:06

that, regardless of where you personally stand on the issue, it will finally be undeniable that we do not live in a truly representative democracy at all?

Given the latest poll in the Times, it is clear that the vast majority of the population support the bill (65% for and 13% against) and yet most of the media seems to be full of story after story about this person or that coming out against it (unsurprisingly, often people with a religious background). I don't remember seeing nearly as many stories about someone telling us they support the bill. The narrative feels as though it is being steered in only one direction.

I mean, it's already fairly much clear that our elected politicians prefer to tell us what to do and what we should think, rather than actually representing our wishes. Otherwise immigration and transgender issues would not still be dominating the headlines. The fact that an amendment to remove bishops from the house of lords failed recently should also tell us that religion still plays far too much of a role in what is an overwhelmingly secular society.

If this bill fails, then anyone in future trying to tell us that we live in one of the greatest democracies in the world is, at this point, just gaslighting us.

OP posts:
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anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 16:27

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 15:44

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest your posts keep referencing this idealistic death without any suffering based on no evidence. There's plenty of evidence that assisted suicide and assisted deaths can still painful and distressing for patients and their loved ones. I completely understand arguing for the control over when and where you die but if you're arguing that this bill guarantees a peaceful painless death isn't evidence based.

There's plenty of evidence that assisted suicide and assisted deaths can still painful

What evidence? Assisted death at somewhere like Dignitas is not painful.

OnceUponATimeInTheWest · 25/11/2024 16:30

JustinThyme · 25/11/2024 16:26

No, it very much isn't.

The 'representative' part is that we choose a person to do all the decision making on our behalf (be our representative) in line with his or her beliefs, conscience and available information.

It is not that the MP is supposed to 'represent' the views or wishes of the consituents. If that were the case, we'd have capital punishment, for a start.

We choose an individual to do the legislating on our behalf. There's absolutely nothing in that contract that says or implies that representative must do what we think is good or right or appropriate. If we don't like how of MP does the job, we're free to choose a different person at the next election.

No it very much is. It is supposed to both. Because if they don't do that, they would then,as you say, be voted out (or at least they would be if we had a decent electoral system that was even passingly democratic).

And capital punishment is not supported by a majority according to most polls, unlike assisted dying.

OP posts:
user8634216758 · 25/11/2024 16:36

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 15:44

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest your posts keep referencing this idealistic death without any suffering based on no evidence. There's plenty of evidence that assisted suicide and assisted deaths can still painful and distressing for patients and their loved ones. I completely understand arguing for the control over when and where you die but if you're arguing that this bill guarantees a peaceful painless death isn't evidence based.

There’s a big difference between pain and distress for, what, 10min? 30min? Or months and months of agony and distress that is often the end of a terminal illness.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 16:40

user8634216758 · 25/11/2024 16:36

There’s a big difference between pain and distress for, what, 10min? 30min? Or months and months of agony and distress that is often the end of a terminal illness.

Where does this idea of an assisted death being painful and distressing come from? At Dignitas people fall asleep within one to three minutes, then into a coma and actual death occurs within 30 minutes. No pain.

W0tnow · 25/11/2024 16:46

I’ve seen loads of people who are against the bill interviewed. Not one has said that assisted death can be painful and distressing. You’d think if there was “plenty of evidence” then they’d be shouting from the rooftops about it?

JustinThyme · 25/11/2024 16:50

@OnceUponATimeInTheWest - you are posting nonsense. A representative democracy does not mean what you keep asserting it does.

The electorate may understandably want someone who reflects their views, but that isn't what the system is designed to offer. We basically subcontract all our decision making about legislation to person we chose as our representative. We've every right to petition them and try and convince them of our way of thinking, but they don't have to pay the blindest bit of notice.

If they do ignore us all, at the following election we may boot them out on their arse. But until that time, they are free to vote as they see fit.

user8634216758 · 25/11/2024 17:00

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 16:40

Where does this idea of an assisted death being painful and distressing come from? At Dignitas people fall asleep within one to three minutes, then into a coma and actual death occurs within 30 minutes. No pain.

I can remember watching the Terry Pratchett documentary years ago, and they filmed the man and his wife as he took the drug. He fell unconscious mid sentance, almost instantly after drinking the drug. He asked for a drink of water, the nurse said no and he was gone. All seemed very fast. Maybe not that efficient for everyone, but it was certainly very quick and calm for him.

user8634216758 · 25/11/2024 17:09

In fact, thinking about the Terry Pratchett documentary, what I remember being so so sad, was that the poor chaps wife was on her own. Presumably for fear of being prosecuted. They filmed her phoning family members, I think probably their children saying “yes, he’s gone” and then she must have had to travel home all by herself.
I can remember how upsetting THAT was to watch, how upsetting and barbaric that we make people travel to a foreign country, on their own, rather than offering the same in the comfort of familiar surroundings.

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:11

Ideally it shouldn't be, no. But if you think these methods are exact or without complications you're wrong. There is a major shortage of the drugs with the highest efficacy rate meaning more and more often other drug combinations are used which come with more complications and time taken for them to be effective can range massively meaning you can still experience a prolonged death. I'm not saying all assisted suicides are painful, I'm saying people are oversimplifying it suggesting that it has no complications involved and that you are guaranteed a peaceful painless death that isnt distressing to your loved ones, which isn't true.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:12

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:11

Ideally it shouldn't be, no. But if you think these methods are exact or without complications you're wrong. There is a major shortage of the drugs with the highest efficacy rate meaning more and more often other drug combinations are used which come with more complications and time taken for them to be effective can range massively meaning you can still experience a prolonged death. I'm not saying all assisted suicides are painful, I'm saying people are oversimplifying it suggesting that it has no complications involved and that you are guaranteed a peaceful painless death that isnt distressing to your loved ones, which isn't true.

What you are asserting isn't true. Unless you provide the evidence.

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:15

user8634216758 · 25/11/2024 16:36

There’s a big difference between pain and distress for, what, 10min? 30min? Or months and months of agony and distress that is often the end of a terminal illness.

Some have been as long as over 100 hours. There is worryingly little reporting from physicians who partake in assisted deaths but the data that is there shows it's unpredictable. I think people rallying behind a bill that's full of holes on the premise that it guarantees a quick painless death should be aware of that.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:18

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:15

Some have been as long as over 100 hours. There is worryingly little reporting from physicians who partake in assisted deaths but the data that is there shows it's unpredictable. I think people rallying behind a bill that's full of holes on the premise that it guarantees a quick painless death should be aware of that.

Again, provide evidence of this or stop spreading disinformation.

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:21

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:12

What you are asserting isn't true. Unless you provide the evidence.

I'm certainly not making up that drugs have complications 🙄 if you genuinely believe we have a 100% guaranteed medical solution to a painless death the whole world would have finished having this debate already. Here is one link for you. I'll leave you to do the rest of the research yourself.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9270985/#:~:text=distressing%20adverse%20effects.-,The%20efficacy%20and%20safety%20of%20%27assisted%20dying%27%20drugs%20are%20currently,reporting%20is%20often%20very%20low.

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:23

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:18

Again, provide evidence of this or stop spreading disinformation.

I'll give you two since you're aggressively ascerting I'm spreading misinformation.

cbn.com/news/world/belgian-woman-suffocated-pillow-after-euthanasia-cocktail-left-her-screaming

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:29

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:21

I'm certainly not making up that drugs have complications 🙄 if you genuinely believe we have a 100% guaranteed medical solution to a painless death the whole world would have finished having this debate already. Here is one link for you. I'll leave you to do the rest of the research yourself.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9270985/#:~:text=distressing%20adverse%20effects.-,The%20efficacy%20and%20safety%20of%20%27assisted%20dying%27%20drugs%20are%20currently,reporting%20is%20often%20very%20low.

You have provided no conclusive evidence that there are complications in assisted dying processes if followed properly like at Dignitas and you clearly cannot provide any. Please stop spreading disinformation to bolster your point.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:29

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:23

I'll give you two since you're aggressively ascerting I'm spreading misinformation.

cbn.com/news/world/belgian-woman-suffocated-pillow-after-euthanasia-cocktail-left-her-screaming

The only (passive) aggressive person here is you.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:30

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:23

I'll give you two since you're aggressively ascerting I'm spreading misinformation.

cbn.com/news/world/belgian-woman-suffocated-pillow-after-euthanasia-cocktail-left-her-screaming

You're sharing links from a Christian broadcasting network as "evidence" and you expect us to take you seriously?

SummerFeverVenice · 25/11/2024 17:31

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:15

Some have been as long as over 100 hours. There is worryingly little reporting from physicians who partake in assisted deaths but the data that is there shows it's unpredictable. I think people rallying behind a bill that's full of holes on the premise that it guarantees a quick painless death should be aware of that.

https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/142/1/15/6580517

Evidence from jurisdictions where assisted suicide is legal reveals that some patients who ingest the prescribed lethal drugs experience distressing complications. The Canadian Association of MAiD Assessors and Providers acknowledges that patients who ingest assisted suicide drugs can experience burning, nausea, vomiting and regurgitation, especially if the patient is experiencing difficulty swallowing large volumes of liquid. Nausea, oesophagitis, gastritis, severe dehydration or pathology of the gastrointestinal tract likely interfere with drug absorption.3 This is reflected in the data published by US states such as Oregon, where annual complication rates have been as high as 14.8% and patients are reported to have experienced difficulty swallowing or drug regurgitation, seizures and have even regained consciousness after ingesting the ‘lethal’ drugs.9
One reason for such difficulties may be that ingesting sufficiently toxic dosages of the prescribed drugs can prove a significant, and often distressing, challenge. In order to achieve an ‘assisted’ death, patients in the USA have been required to ingest 90 to 100 barbiturate pills by crushing them and mixing them into a sweet solvent. The emetogenic potency and bitterness requires antiemetics prior to ingestion to prevent vomiting. Such an experience of her aunt’s assisted suicide was described by a relative in 20164:
The full ‘cocktail’ included two anti-nausea pills, an anti-seizure pill and 100 capsules of Secobarbital. It all had to be ingested within an hour... My attention turned to the kitchen table, where my husband and sister, wearing latex gloves, frantically scraped the powder from 100 capsules with toothpicks, trying to beat the clock... The mountain of powder we poured into more sugar syrup created a half-cup of sludge so bitter it literally burned my tongue. And my aunt, who could barely swallow water, had to drink all of it in <5 min to ‘ensure success.’... When we sat back down at the kitchen table, white powder everywhere, we all had to wonder, ‘Who the hell wrote this law?’ We had been forced to assist in the most bizarre fashion, jumping through seemingly random legal hoops and meeting arbitrary deadlines while my aunt suffered, and finally emptying capsules, making an elixir so vile I cried when I knew she had to drink it. This was death with dignity?
There is also evidence that the drugs used for assisted suicide do not consistently bring about death quickly. Time to death after ingesting the lethal drugs seems highly unpredictable. Of cases with available data in Oregon since 2001, time from drug ingestion to death has ranged from 1 min (too short for the cause to have been oral drugs) to 108 h. Thirty-three percent of the total deaths with recorded data have taken over an hour, and 7.6% over 6 h. Time to death has become longer since the introduction of experimental drug cocktails ‘DDMA’ and ‘DDMP’. The median time to death after ingestion has doubled since 2015. Fifty-five percent of patients given ‘DDMP2’ (containing 15 g of morphine sulfate) and 45% of those given ‘DDMA’ have experienced a prolonged dying that lasted over 1 h.9
In 2017, The Denver Post published an article about a man in Colorado who sought assisted suicide after being diagnosed with cancer. Although his wife thought he would die quickly and peacefully, after ingesting the lethal drugs he experienced distressing complications and took over 9 h to die5:
On the day of Kurt’s death, Susan mixed the liquids prescribed as directed and Kurt began drinking the compound. ‘But with every sip,’ Susan says, ‘he’s choking and coughing, choking and coughing.’ It went on for nearly 20 min... Although he never regained consciousness, the gasping, uneven breathing continued. Two hours passed. Then 4 h. ‘At 4:15,’ Susan says, ‘I started to majorly panic.’ As she tried without success to reach a doctor, a couple more disturbing thoughts crossed her mind: She feared that Kurt, despite his unconsciousness, could hear everything—the calls, the desperation in her voice. And she wondered if his choking when he first took the medication meant that he had aspirated enough to delay its effect. Around 7 p.m., she asked hospice to send a nurse. Shortly after the nurse arrived, a doctor called and suggested some additional measures. Soon after, Susan saw her husband sit up slightly and appear to retch three times. She ran to his bedside. Then he slid back into his pillows and stopped breathing.
The unpredictable efficacy of assisted suicide drugs is acknowledged by the Royal Dutch Medical and Pharmaceutical Societies and the Canadian Association of MAiD Assessors and Providers, who both recommend that clinicians obtain consent from patients to convert to euthanasia prior to ingestion of the lethal drugs in case the patient takes too long to die.8,25 In 2018, of the MAiD cases in Canada with available data, 50% were unsuccessful by 60 min and the clinician transitioned to euthanasia to complete the ‘assisted’ death.25

Issue Cover

Efficacy and safety of drugs used for ‘assisted dying’

AbstractBackground. ‘Assisted dying’ is practiced in some European countries and US states. Legislation suggests that there exists an easily prescribed dru

https://academic.oup.com/bmb/article/142/1/15/6580517

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:33

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:29

You have provided no conclusive evidence that there are complications in assisted dying processes if followed properly like at Dignitas and you clearly cannot provide any. Please stop spreading disinformation to bolster your point.

You ready through the entire article and all the linked studies very quickly there to come to the exact opposite conclusion, your position being based on entirely no evidence! Digbitas is a private for profit company, if you think they are open and honest about every death that isn't the ideal 2-3 minutes you sound a bit naive.
Genuinely, do you actually believe that medicine has an exact method for a painless death that can't be complicated by dosing errors or complications?

SummerFeverVenice · 25/11/2024 17:39

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 16:40

Where does this idea of an assisted death being painful and distressing come from? At Dignitas people fall asleep within one to three minutes, then into a coma and actual death occurs within 30 minutes. No pain.

The idea that assisted death is peaceful, painless and quick comes from Hollywood:

”Clinicians throughout the world are prescribing and administering a wide variety of lethal drug combinations for patients who request an ‘assisted death’. While assisted suicide and euthanasia is often portrayed as a ‘Hollywood’ style peaceful and painless death, evidence from jurisdictions where the practice is legal reveals that this is not always the case. The prevalence of reported and suspected complications suggest there stands a risk of subjecting patients to a less than peaceful death and their loved ones to a traumatic bereavement.”

From the Same British Medical Bulletin link I posted above,

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:40

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:33

You ready through the entire article and all the linked studies very quickly there to come to the exact opposite conclusion, your position being based on entirely no evidence! Digbitas is a private for profit company, if you think they are open and honest about every death that isn't the ideal 2-3 minutes you sound a bit naive.
Genuinely, do you actually believe that medicine has an exact method for a painless death that can't be complicated by dosing errors or complications?

Digbitas is a private for profit company

No it isn't. You're just lying and discrediting your own arguments.

All that article you've shared says is that there is little data and there is one anecdote from a relative in the US. Hardly conclusive.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:42

SummerFeverVenice · 25/11/2024 17:39

The idea that assisted death is peaceful, painless and quick comes from Hollywood:

”Clinicians throughout the world are prescribing and administering a wide variety of lethal drug combinations for patients who request an ‘assisted death’. While assisted suicide and euthanasia is often portrayed as a ‘Hollywood’ style peaceful and painless death, evidence from jurisdictions where the practice is legal reveals that this is not always the case. The prevalence of reported and suspected complications suggest there stands a risk of subjecting patients to a less than peaceful death and their loved ones to a traumatic bereavement.”

From the Same British Medical Bulletin link I posted above,

That is just ridiculous.

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:43

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:40

Digbitas is a private for profit company

No it isn't. You're just lying and discrediting your own arguments.

All that article you've shared says is that there is little data and there is one anecdote from a relative in the US. Hardly conclusive.

Edited

And given we don't have as much data as we ought to (because these physicians aren't reporting much which is concerning in itself) and the data we do have shows there is not a 100% efficacy rate with assisted suicide drugs, you're gonna have to justify calling me a liar given what I have stated is backed up by the data.

SummerFeverVenice · 25/11/2024 17:45

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:42

That is just ridiculous.

The British Medical Bulletin and all the other medical sources they cite are ridiculous? That’s a new one.

anchorage81 · 25/11/2024 17:45

Usernamesareboring1 · 25/11/2024 17:43

And given we don't have as much data as we ought to (because these physicians aren't reporting much which is concerning in itself) and the data we do have shows there is not a 100% efficacy rate with assisted suicide drugs, you're gonna have to justify calling me a liar given what I have stated is backed up by the data.

given what I have stated is backed up by the data.

But it isn't. You've not provided any conclusive evidence or data that assisted dying, with the process properly followed like at Dignitas has any complications.

Any process not properly followed can of course have complications. Doesn't mean assisted dying should not be made available to those in immense suffering who ask for it.