To ask why you support the farmers, regarding inheritance tax?

[WheresFluffy]

Just that, really.
I'm interested to know why people support, or not, the farmers regarding the inheritance tax changes.

YABU - it's been done to death
YANBU - learning why people believe things is important.

I agree with this. And if the biggest polluters in China, India etc and possibly going forwards the USA don’t change, the difference we can make in achieving net zero won’t have much of an impact… (I’m not saying we shouldn’t before I get a pile on, just think about how much other countries commit to this and whether they are serious about change, which I don’t think they are)

The UK imports about 40% of its food. That makes us vulnerable. The world is becoming a more unstable and unpredictable place. Extreme weather events and conflict will threaten food production abroad so domestic food production is increasingly important.

Farming is barely financially viable for many farmers - they are at the mercy of supermarkets. They are asset rich and cash poor. If they have to sell land to pay an inheritance tax bill, then a barely viable farm becomes unviable. If the land is sold, it won’t go to another farmer, it will go to a solar farm, property developer or investor. The nation then produces progressively less of its own food and then when imports are threatened we are basically screwed. We are a few missed meals away from chaos. You can’t ramp up food production over a few weeks, it takes years.

When a family farm is lost, then knowledge, expertise and a deep understanding of the land is lost. You don’t get that back when a crisis hits.

Farmers don’t farm because it makes them rich. They farm because they love the land, because they don’t know anything else and because they have a deep and abiding love for their farm. A farm may be an asset that is worth a few million pounds but most of them will never realise the benefits of that. They will work more hours than anyone else for a smaller wage. They will ruin their bodies and, at times, barely see their families. It’s thankless and gruelling work that breaks your heart when your stock dies for no reason or the weather is against you. The return on investment is tiny. It’s not about the money. It’s about the farm and the food.

Once those farms are lost, they won’t come back. Food security isn’t something we should be gambling with and the relative gains are small when measured against the impact of a food shortage. It is short sighted and dangerous.

IHT is a good way of putting the farm out of business and detering farmers to produce. It will allow corporations to come in and decide what is done with the land. Britain would have more food coming from other countries and what regulations they have or don't have e.g. antibiotics in meat then going into the food chain. A European or Saudi/ Chinese corporation would have incentive to buy up land. Local farms are the first block in small country areas to support businesses e.g buying fencing materials, gates, machinery parts, tractors parts, animal feeds (tonnes of it!) , shed building , vets employed for large animal treatment/care....all small British family businesses. It is an all year round business unlike holiday home rental in rural areas which is seasonal. If lots of farms are no longer in production food from abroad is the only alternative. Selling part of an asset for tax bill is the the same as asking a taxi driver's offspring to sell one of the wheels on the vehicle when they inherit the business

Isnt this just the “poor farmer” narrative though? ONS doesn’t feature farmers in their occupation with the highest suicide stats- that’s tradesmen

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/suicidebyoccupation/england2011to2015#statistical-measures-of-suicide-by-occupation

Here is a very level view point in the image, from a wise voice on farming, Guy Singh-Watson

@ARealitycheck @Bitofashithouse

I haven't made these figures up - I heard them on R4 this morning. Here's a link to the BBC verify page, and here's the quote:

"Other government figures suggest that the average return on capital for farms (the amount of value farmers can extract from things like farmland and machinery by growing crops for example) is only about 0.5%, which is low compared with other businesses".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rlk0d2vk2o

This is the whole point. Farming is not like any other business. Sitting on a "valuable" farm absolutely does not make you cash rich. Yes you can sell to realise that capital, which is what farmers will end up doing, but this is to the detriment of the whole country. Or at least, those of us who like to eat.

An average farm has 200 acres and an average acre is worth 10k.
That's 2 million just for the land.
Add a house for 350k
Then there's a tractor, trailer, loadall, lorry, quad, land rover worth in total 150k.
Then there's 1000 sheep worth £100 each.
100 cows worth £1000 each.
3 bulls worth 5k each.
Farm buildings worth a total of 150k.

That's a perfectly average farm that will provide a living for 2 generations. It's already at 3 million and there's probably quite a few things missed off.

Surely this policy is going to have the adverse effect of stopping investment in farms as that will increase the value. Farmers won't want to improve things like housing for animals, slurry storage, the quality of their animals. That will be bad for the environment and for animal welfare.

We've just been discussing this. If the farm is going to continue to be farmed by those that inherit, no.it should not be taxed. If those that inherit don't farm it for at least 5 years after inheriting they should pay inheritance tax ... just like everybody else.

return on capital is not the same as earnings/ salary.

And yet, they do. And it keeps us all alive.

I'm not disputing the claim may be they only make that on paper. But as I say non farming investors are most definately parting with figures way above inflation for farmland. They don't do that to get a return that low. I suspect IHT avoidance does play a part in their reasoning.

No they don’t, as evidenced above 0.5% is return on capital, not earnings

You can’t bring a dead spouse back to life

It seems a pity if we cannot differentiate between genuine family farms of less than say 1000 acres and large newly acquired multi thousand acre estates whose main purpose is financial engineering.
Does anyone know of how other countries manage to keep family businesses intact over several generation?

@whenemmafallsinlove dentists have very high suicide rates too, many reasons in play.

Something like this seems like a fair solution. It should apply to people who inherit the home they live in too though.

A farmer, reverend and a stranger enter a bar...

India and China are only big polluters because they have big populations.
Per head they emit much less pollution than the UK.
You can hardly expect a country with 1.4 billion people to produce the same pollution as a country of 70 million.

They have 20x as many people as us. Do you think it's ok for each UK citizen to produce 20x as much pollution as a Chinese citizen so that we are equal (also disregarding the fact that a lot of the pollution created by china is produced by manufacturing exported consumer goods....)

Because they're already working every hour that God sends in order to keep afloat.

I agree

For all those saying how great farming is - are you planning on going into farming? Are you going to buy a farm? Or do you just begrudge anyone who had more than you… because wait until you hear about bankers!!

Can you link to the study please? Thanks.

I support them.This would punish the many for the sins of a few. Our food security is far more important than a few quid in tax, especially given the current global context. Farmers also do the back-breaking, antisocial work that not many of us want to.

Given that the average person is carrying the highest tax burden we have ever had, I would rather the government focused on getting large corporations to pay their fair share of tax and to pay people better.

Anyone who feels otherwise should try growing their own food and see how difficult it is. Perhaps then they will have more respect for the people that feed us and facilitate the prices we currently pay at the supermarket (which would inevitably go up to offset the impact of IHT).

Im sure many paying inheritance tax trapped in dead end jobs would love to farm- they don’t have multi million pound farms handed down to them though.