Cafes stopping food before they close

[athomemum1]

I love a cafe stop on a weekend but often find them stopping food or closing before they actually close. Today I went to a cafe that was advertised as closing at 5 at 3.55 we waited for a seat for 5 ish minutes to be told they stop serving food at 4. I can under stand stopping a bit before but a whole hour seems a bit much. Also walked to a cafe last month who closed at 4.30 and at 3.45 ish where told we couldn’t have a drink as they were closing at 4.30.

I'm far more inclined to support a local small business than a chain - every time - but if the small business can't/won't meet what I actually need then I move on to one that can.

Businesses exist to serve the customer, not the other way around.

@Storybot no, apologies, it's actually 6 hours, I made a typo. But the point still stands that people in hospitality don't really get a lunch break. They often work long days and don't want to work the extra hours.

One of the reasons people do work in minimum wage paid jobs in cafes and pubs is that they can often plan their hours to work around childcare etc.

Owners of the businesses struggle to get staff to cover the hours that the customer wants sometimes, but more often it is a case that there is not enough demand to stay open beyond the peak hours so it becomes financially unviable to do so.

I don't think its unreasonable that staff do not want to work unpaid hours.
Equally I don't think its unreasonable to go into a cafe for a drink half an hour before the advertised closing time

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe Businesses can't exist to serve the demands of customers if it's not profitable.

Big chains of cafes can afford to open longer hours because their overheads are lower. If people are happy for all our high streets to look exactly the same and for billions of profits to be moved around the globe then that is the choice people can make.

I don't think people are 'happy' for that to happen but in reality, what can be the alternative? If I'm taking customers for something to eat for lunch I will often ask them where they'd like to go. They will quite often mention a local cafe but when we get there, it's closed or not serving.

The 'not profitable' goes hand in hand with 'not servicing' - and everybody loses. The customer will move their custom elsewhere and that's just economics/supply and demand.

I don't know what the answer is but, giving customers notice of last serving times is pretty basic and shouldn't be beyond the wit of any business to provide that information.

No, I agree that premises should state their hours. I do also get the difficulty in avoiding going to a chain when nothing else is open.

Part of the problem is that most small and medium businesses operate on such tight margins now, that something has to give. Successive governments have increased costs for businesses with huge jumps in NMW, pensions & increased bureaucracy, combined with the impact of the lockdowns and rises in utilities that most hospitality venues are just about staying afloat, never mind making a profit.

I'm not suggesting that the NMW should not have increased by the way, just that the combined increases have happened so quickly. Customers will only stomach paying so much for a sandwich and a cup of coffee before they just decide they can't justify it. So businesses can't just increase prices and have had to adapt to ensure they don't go under. Opening for only the most profitably hours is one way businesses have done this.

Opening for only the most profitably hours is one way businesses have done this

This would work fine for me IF I know what those hours are. When I take clients out and they want a quick snack/lunch I would keep a list of those places with operating hours - and that's where we would go. I could be totally flexible on that.

What I can't do is try 'on the off-chance' and that's why the chains win. They win and we all lose. I'm sad about that too.

Absolutely this! Staffing is bare bones, it has to be cleaned down so 🤷‍♀️

I agree communication should be there as to service times, but you can keep customers informed, websites updated and signs up, so many people just don't notice the information and expect the business to conform to what they want anyway.
We have it on the website, outside, inside, any member of staff can tell you, but people didn't look on the website, or didn't notice the signs, or didn't ask a member of staff.

Hospitality is struggling for staff, but what many owners are realising is that without the staff, just as much as without the customers, there's no service or business at all. So they have to move to hours that they can staff in order to stay open so customers can come in in the first place. Those that work with their staff, pay them for the hours they actually work and treat them well keep them, but the downside to that is it's usually a more expensive place - with prices that the customers don't want to pay.

People want to be spontaneous, they want the good service there, running at all and any times they might want to use it, with no guarantee that they actually will, or even if they do, what is spent will even cover the cost of it being open. The choice then is shut up shop because it's unaffordable, staff the busiest times and not the quiet ones so reduced operating hours, or expect staff to give their time for free to keep the customers happy.

The last is what has kept many places afloat, but that's changing, because why should people like me subside a) someone else's business if they're not going to pay me for what I do? And b) someone else's leisure time because they're not willing to pay the actual prices it costs to deliver the service they want to use?

It's a job, not a well paid one, and is certainly not well regarded in our society - it's not a calling from God. These types of service jobs have been denigrated and taken advantage of for a long time, the entirely predictable result is less and less people willing to work in that environment.

Combine that with the rise in everything used to provide that service, cutting margins even tighter and increasingly poor customer behaviour combined with higher customer demands, and this is where we are.

This country has the service it's cultivated with it's attitude towards and treatment of, the service industry and the people within it.

people always moan about the big chains like starbucks, costa etc taking over from independents but that is BECAUSE THEY ARE OPEN!

I often see (and sometimes go to) my local starbucks after work to meet up with a friend, and there are still customers at 7, 8pm. I've been to ones that are open until 10pm. Unless you go to a pub, they are pretty much the only places for people who work standard office hours to have a catch up after work.

Same for early mornings - I wanted to go for a breakfast before work a few months ago, all the 'naice' indie cafes didn't open until 10, whereas starbucks and wetherspoons were serving from 7am.

I appreciate it must be hard with staffing, not being sure whether there will be sufficient customers etc, but at the end of the day people can't choose to go to places that aren't open! And after a while they will stop even looking for alternatives, even for the times the other places are open and serving and think 'Ah lets just go to starbucks at least we know it will definitely be open and they won't chuck us out if they want to close by 3.'

No. If a cafe closes at 5pm ( even if food is stopped at 4pm) they will be there till at least 5.30/ 6pm usually. Kitchen clean down usually takes an hour. All tables cleaned, floor swept and mopped, counter and cabinets to be cleaned, coffee machines cleaned ( clean cycle be 40 minutes) then cashing up, restocking for tomorrow all take place after the last customer has left. No one walks out at closing time in hospitality.

Realistically the profit made from a few extra coffees will not be worth the wages to stay open late! They also may not have staff who are able to stay later. Don’t forget they will be there an hour after closing. It’s highly unlikely they just don’t want to bother .

Surely all the stuff about cleaning up etc is a red herring? The business should always pay the staff to clean up after the customers have left? So the staff will always be there for x amount of time beyond closing? That shouldn’t be the issue; no one expects the hours open to customers and the hours when staff are on site to be identical 🤷‍♀️

The issue is surely how you get the customers out the door so that the staff can start that work. So it makes sense to stop taking food orders at least half an hour before the advertised closing time; the closing time is when customers are supposed to vacate the premises, surely? So it doesn’t make sense to order 5 mins before that time as you can expect to be ushered out before you’ve finished!

It means I just don't bother patronizing cafes any time after lunch time. It's always the same. Kitchen closing or they've ran out of every thing.

Chains are usually open at least 12 hours per day. They'll make profits for roughly 6 of those hours (busier times) and run at a loss for the other 6 hours (quieter times). It makes no sense for them to close in the quieter times due to staff rotas etc. They'll typically have 2 or 3 shifts or maybe even more flexible shifts. The owner/manager won't be expected to be there for the entire 12 hours - they'll be there at one of the busier times to supervise and help out at the peaks.

Big chains can absorb the loss making hours because they're making big profits at the busy times. They're typically bigger, so can serve more people in their busy times. They also benefit from being a chain, i.e. with people in an unfamiliar city simply googling for a chain household name - that's exceptional marketing that an independent can never emulate. Your independent may be down a side street off a main street - random customers don't know the name so can't google for it, and you'll only happen across it if you are walking down that street. Big chains factor in ridiculously high rents so have their premises on the High Street itself.

You really can't compare a small independent with a chain.

The small independent, because it's small, can't make high profits at busy times because of physical limitations, i.e. limited as to the number of tables and chairs they can fit in, limited to the number of meals and coffees they can make due to the limitations as to how many coffee machines/fryers/ovens etc they can fit it and staff, etc. They can't buy in the raw ingredients as cheaply as the big chains because the big chains benefit from purchasing power and economies of scale. Quite simply, a little cafe that can only handle, say, 10 or 20 customers at a time because it's small, can't make enough profit out of those 10/20 customers to subsidise loss making times of day.

It's ALL in the numbers.

Then you add in that a small cafe is probably trading under the VAT threshold, and that selling just one extra coffee could push it over the VAT threshold which means they lose several thousand pounds in VAT. That's why a lot of small shops, guest houses, cafes, fast food places, deliberately only open a few days per week, or only a few hours per day, because it can actually cost them thousands if they breach the VAT threshold! It's why there are some which actually close down completely for a few weeks over Winter, as they need to "reset the clock" for the cumulative VAT turnover threshold. Remember that's sales/turnover, not profit, on which VAT thresholds work!

In that case they should be paying the staff to do it after the cafe closes

Surely all the stuff about cleaning up etc is a red herring? The business should always pay the staff to clean up after the customers have left? So the staff will always be there for x amount of time beyond closing? That shouldn’t be the issue; no one expects the hours open to customers and the hours when staff are on site to be identical

oh you sweet summer child. Several of us have explained this in great detail already. Owners don't/won't do that

Paying for extra hours reduces a profit or turns a break even business into a loss.

You may also find staff don't want to work an extra hour if they have other commitments such as picking up children from school or childcare. Or want to avoid the rush hour traffic which would delay them getting home.

Staff who've already worked several hours may not want to work another hour on top. You can't bring in an extra employee or two just for an hour's "cleaning up" work.

I'm really confused about the cafe who couldnt serve you a drink 45 min before they closed. That presumably meant they couldnt serve food either so aside from the door being open , I'm not sure what part of the cafe was open! If the staff need that 45 min for cleaning and clearing and are not able to serve customers they should close the door and say its closed.Its possible other people may have been eating/drinking having been served earlier . This would be the same as a shop which may still be serving existing customers even when the door is shut and the store has technically closed.

I used to work in catering we stopped serving earlier than Closure. I don't think it's fair for staff to have to stay behind while people who have turned up at 4.55 finish their tea when Closure is at 5.

On a side note it really annoys me that the store I work in doesnt display its opening hours on the window or front door. I often arrive for work before the store is open and find customers at the door looking in as they can see staff working inside. Similarly we could probably avoid some of the customers coming in a few minutes before closing if the closing time was clearly visible. We also have staff working up till 10pm and customers still see if they can come in when a member of staff lets another out!

YABU, of course they have to stop serving food before they close. The staff have to clean up etc.
It is pretty entitled to turn up at 5 mins before close and expect anything other than something that is already there and ready to takeaway.
I mean, even Costa wont serve you in anything other than takeaway cups just before closing.
A very popular cafe where I live stops anything other than cakes (that are already out on display) about 90 mins before they close. It is well advertised that the kitchen is closed before the cafe is.

No. I’ve read the thread (and you’ve conveniently ignored my second paragraph, presumably so you can patronise me?).

I’m saying that staff can’t properly clean up with people sitting there in the cafe, eating and creating dishes to wash. The final cleaning up literally can’t happen until the cafe is devoid of customers. So I was actually saying it makes sense to stop serving, say, 30 mins before you want everyone out so that you can start the final clean up. Presumably you can make a good start on the kitchen during those 30 mins too?

Why so keen to be all sneery about it? I was just pointing out that staff will always have some clearing up to do once the customers have left. The staff don’t literally follow the last customer out.

Are you in the UK? It’s totally the norm here.

Places stop serving food & hot drinks before they actually close -

Because people will sit, and sit, and sit...... And some of them simply to make a point that the staff are there to serve them and they'll go when they're ready and not before, despite 'closing time', because as a customer they're entitled to.

Because telling someone you're closed but having people in there eating and drinking usually leads to the 'But they're here, so clearly you're not closed are you!' or "Can't you just...." argument. So 'We've stopped serving hot drinks & meals" eliminates that argument, does create the 'But the door is open!" Ones though, like you're supposed to lock the present customers in, and like that would stop anyone banging on the door asking the same question when they saw people in there anyway.

(It's the same argument as being turned away when "There's plenty of tables, I can see them!" Argument, yup, plenty of tables with plenty of bookings within the next half hour to an hour and that's not long enough for you to settle, order, eat & drink, settle the bill and for us to clear & reset the table, while serving everyone else.)

Because they may offer takeaway cold drinks & packaged food to go after that time, so that's the part that's open.

Because barista machines can take a good while to clean properly, sanitise the machine, all the utensils etc. Things like the dishwasher need stripping, cleaning and sanitising and because people moan about feeling unwelcome, and like you're rushing them if you do those jobs while they're there, or you're away doing those jobs and they need you that instant.

It's a poorly paid and poorly regarded job, not a calling from God and people shouldn't be expected to finish work late because of the power trip whim of someone else, but that's the kind of service people seem to expect more and more, and that's why there's a shortage of people willing to work in hospitality.

You can demand all you like, but you're talking to fresh air when there's no one willing to meet your demands. People will have to start paying more for the service they want, or accept that if they don't and they pay cheaper prices, the service will reflect that. Service workers don't exist to subsidise either huge profit margins or the leisure time of the general public.

You want places open and serving you until the last second in case you fancy a coffee at any given moment, you need to be prepared to pay what that costs to deliver.