Private Schools- hear me out before you judge!

[Silverbook]

I'm a state school teacher in Scotland. Class sizes are - 25 for P1, 30 for P2-3 and 33 for P4-7. I currently have a class size of 25, most classes in the school are 25-28. Relatively small town- 2 primaries, 1 independent and 1 secondary. The next nearest independent is 45 mins away.

The local independent school is closing due to VAT, the pupils are largely coming here. This is pushing all our class sizes up. No extra funding or staff, obviously. My issue with independent schools closing is that is directly impacting the state sector and no extra funding, resources or infrastructure is in place to support it.

Yes, our classes are still within legal limits but it will always be the most disadvantaged children/those with greater need of support who are impacted most by larger class sizes as there is just less time to spend with them.

I really feel this has been a poorly thought through and knee jerk policy. Surely you invest and create capacity in existing resources before increasing pupil numbers?

100% and worse. The LA main goal is to not provide and if must, delay it as long as possible (unless the child is child of someone at council, a teacher), etc

LOL as if they'd just going, "oh County X, here's an extra 1000 students to accommodate In your 500 schools, School A take these 2, School B take these 2 please" ...

It's going to be such an unsettled time for all of these children.

It would have been much kinder for all concerned - pupils, parents and teachers in both state and private systems - if the government would have given more notice of the changes and phased them in gradually.

Clumsy and thoughtless to bring the VAT in so suddenly.

The LA will direct children to where the places are. Some of these schools will be a long, long way away from home. They can do this- they might have to provide transport of course.

But it won't work like that with an even spread. It'll hit areas with a lot of private schools, especially day schools, far more than areas with few private schools. So some schools will be barely hit at all, and towns with a lot of private schools will have loads of over subscription.

Things will balance out in time, but it's shit for the kids affected.

@Arran2024 the Edinburgh private school my DS goes to has 2400 pupils in it. And it's one of a number of large day schools. The city could not educate all of its children if they closed.

I watched an interview with Katherine Birbalsingh earlier this evening - Michaela had independent school students come to their 6th form open evening for the first time this term, she made the point that her school aims to provide the best education for disadvantaged children who will now have independent sector children competing for places and even if she can give everyone who applies a 6th form place she can't magically hire teachers - because VAT on school fees does nothing to solve the teacher retention crisis.

The Telegraph has an agenda very much aligned with Guido Fawkes, so no I don’t agree that it’s ’more reputable and relevant’ - it just recycled the Guido post several hours later with some additional fluff but without actually adding anything factual.

As for the Telegraph article asserting that Pennycook has been ‘referred to the parliamentary commissioner for standards for not revealing his close relationship with Luke Sibieta’, there’s nothing on the PCS website to confirm that an allegation against Pennycook is being investigated, so I’ll take the Telegraph’s claim about that with a very large pinch of salt unless / until proved otherwise.

She makes a good point. I’ve also been thinking about what a PP said about unique city areas and high rates of fee paying schools. Within walking distance/catchment of my house there are:

private HS 800 pupils
prep 500 pupils
RC prep 200 pupils

(So about 1500 children)

RC primary 433 (capacity 420)
Infant primary 165 (capacity 170)
Non-denom primary 479 (capacity 480)
Comprehensive High school 1735 (capacity 1750).

In addition there is:
SEN school (3-19) 180 pupils
SEN HS 40 pupils

The private prep with 200 children will not be open next sept. I will bet my house on it. The 500 place prep will maybe survive but not for more than 3-5yrs.

This is a densely populated area of the city and most children walk to all these schools. I live right in the middle of it and there is a genuine closeness to the community. There are of course children that commute to the SEN & Fee schools up to an hr but they are the exceptions, not the norm.

Anyway, my v convoluted point is, where will the children go when the schools start to close? And who will teach them? I know about a dozen private school teachers well, and all are adamant they will not return to the state sector. I can’t see where the 200 RC children will go - certainly not the RC primary. What do other people’s pupil numbers look like?

Do you have access to the accounts of the two schools that you think will close?

This isn't really anything to do with private schools. The same thing would happen if any school closed. Kids have to move to the next closest one?

But the point is there's not spaces. Schools are already oversubscribed in loads of places.

What will happen is they'll end up having to find private school places ... They do this already for kids they can't provide for. It will just be now more expensive for them and there'll be more funded places.

How many state schools do you know with 1000+ pupils that just close?

How many large state schools have closed within the last 10 years?

Completely agree. A few of the comments on these threads read like Disability Top Trumps. DS1’s state infant school experience was a disaster even though he’s had an EHCP and full-time 1:1 support since he was in Reception. He spent several years in a private school that could meet his needs (lower year group, small quiet classes, amazing SEN support, 1:1 who really was with him all the time rather than also checking on other children) because it took us literally years to convince our LA that he needed to be in a specialist school. I find comments suggesting that children with SEN in a private school clearly don’t have much SEN are both insensitive and uninformed.

DS1 has asked for a cuddly toy Paddington Bear and a Lego Sorting Hat for his main Christmas presents this year. He’s 19.

And he’ll never live fully independently. He still spent 3 years in a mainstream private school though.

Well they would have to. Legally they have to. They might send children all over the city, put up portacabins in existing schools, fund home tutors....they have to do something. It may not remotely suit the children or parents, but that is what will happen. Anyway, presumably a lot of the children would go to other Edinburgh private schools?

How do you find out how many kids are currently in each school…is it on the local council website or ?

Yes but the LA would have early knowledge of that and be in control of and take on board full responsibility of where the kids would go.
There has, however, been no preparation by the Government in this situation.

If they’ve left because they cannot afford it why would they be able to afford another.

because VAT on school fees does nothing to solve the teacher retention crisis.

Interesting. This was exactly the point I was making earlier in the thread. Katherine is well respected and regarded. She knows her stuff.

That school must already have been close to being unviable to have closed before the actual imposition OP. And with a good 18 months warning prior to the budget. This has been coming down the track for a long time. I predict there'll be more, but they'll be schools already on the brink. A school local to us went bust a few years back - nothing to do with VAT then

I thought the scenario was the private school closing down and 2.4k kids suddenly needing a new school. If it's just a largish number leaving, and the school remains, the LA will simply find a solution. It has to. Where I live, there was a sudden explosion in pupil numbers about 15 years ago. They made new classrooms in existing schools, put portacabins in the playground. The La may bus kids into next door local authorities... there WILL be a solution.

You moving the goal posts, on what will persuade you that the IFS report was not worth the paper it was written on and was completely written with a biased agenda, doesn’t change the facts. You take it with a pinch of salt. Of not. It’s up to you. Your opinion is not that important to me.

Oxfordshire prep school to close https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/24712048.banbury-private-school-close-due-pressure-budget/ (Carrdus school)

Statement from the Governors
Posted November 7th 2024← More News
It is with deep sadness that the Governors confirm that they are currently reviewing the future of Carrdus School and that it is likely to close from the end of the spring term 2025, unless a commercial solution can be found. The Governors are actively continuing to explore all possible avenues to avoid closure but wanted to give the Carrdus community as much notice as possible at this stage.
The introduction of VAT on independent school fees mid academic year, further compounded by the loss of charitable business rates relief and the increase in employers’ national insurance contributions, has put a great deal of pressure on parents and schools. Consequently, a number of Carrdus parents have been left with no alternative option but to give notice to withdraw their child from the school either at the end of the autumn term, or at the end of the academic year.
Our focus is now on supporting the Carrdus families to secure places for their children at other local schools, as well as supporting the staff to ensure that the children continue to receive an outstanding education for the remainder of their time at Carrdus.
We would like to take this opportunity to thank the parents and staff who worked tirelessly to make Carrdus such a special school for generations of children who have flourished within its warm and nurturing community.
7 Nov 2024
https://www.carrdusschool.com/news/world-book-day

(Looks like in 2023 it only had 113 pupils - https://carrdus-school.files.svdcdn.com/production/Documents/Inspection/Carrdus-School-ROU-Report.pdf?dm=1710157413 )

Obviously if a school of that size closes down there will be both kids who will move to another private school ( if there is one available ) and kids who can’t.
I would assume a school of that size would have to lose quite a number before they closed
So there will be a lot of kids without a school

Agree portacabins were a thing in my day at school as the country had an explosion of births. We had the money then of course.
Given previous posts and what teachers from our old schools have said though it doesn’t seem there will be that many teachers around to teach them….we’ll have to wait and see….not a great modus operandi for kids education